Charles Lechmere and the Pinchin Street torso

[Debra Arif]

Pinchin Street- The jury at once returned a verdict of "Wilful murder against some person or persons unknown."


Elizabeth Jackson-the coroner suggested to the jury that a verdict of wilful murder, by some person or persons unknown should be returned. A verdict in accordance with the coroner's direction was reached and the jury complemented the police engaged on the case on their vigilance and the ability they had shown in bringing the matter to an issue.

Drs Hebbert and Bond made a first hand detailed examination of all the remains involved in these four torso cases. Bond had also worked on other similar cases in the 1870s so was in a position to make comparison between these four torso cases and previous cases of a similar nature. Bond and Hebbert's detailed autopsy examinations of all four cases still exist-one set in a medical jurisprudence text book and the other set as two lectures given by Hebbert based on those autopsies and were given as lectures to students at the Westminster Hospital where Hebbert and Bond both lectured in forensics.

It is down on record and I also mention it later in the piece Trevor is quoting me from, that Bond's conclusions on the Elizabeth Jackson cases changed when it was determined without a doubt that Elizabeth's uterus was removed from her body after death and that he foetus was then removed from the uterus. Initially the statement about abortion had been made when a parcel containing only an empty uterus, umbilical cord and flaps of abdominal skin was the first thing to be retrieved from the Thames and a post mortem on all the remains had not yet been carried out. As I keep telling Trevor over and over-anyone reading the detailed descriptions of Elizabeth's organs of generation will see Bond went to great trouble to examine the birth canal and areas that usually show the tell tale signs of abortion being atempted and there were none.

We've had this same old argument over and over-his official conclusion was that no abortion had been attempted.
Bond and Hebbert's autopsy notes from all four cases are official and the most detailed descriptions of the torsos that we have. Their opinion was that a slaughterer or horse knacker was responsible or someone accustomed to cutting up animals. None of the body parts had been injected in the veins with fluid used when body parts are used as medical specimens and the appearance of skin created at the tops of the arms etc after removal. was not the way a medial man would do it.
The other dissertation is quoting newspaper articles and not these autopsy notes.

[Debra Arif]

Would they have used venetian blind cord for any purpose at Pickford's?

[Trevor Marriott]

Pinchin Street- The jury at once returned a verdict of "Wilful murder against some person or persons unknown."


Elizabeth Jackson-the coroner suggested to the jury that a verdict of wilful murder, by some person or persons unknown should be returned. A verdict in accordance with the coroner's direction was reached and the jury complemented the police engaged on the case on their vigilance and the ability they had shown in bringing the matter to an issue.

Drs Hebbert and Bond made a first hand detailed examination of all the remains involved in these four torso cases. Bond had also worked on other similar cases in the 1870s so was in a position to make comparison between these four torso cases and previous cases of a similar nature. Bond and Hebbert's detailed autopsy examinations of all four cases still exist-one set in a medical jurisprudence text book and the other set as two lectures given by Hebbert based on those autopsies and were given as lectures to students at the Westminster Hospital where Hebbert and Bond both lectured in forensics.

It is down on record and I also mention it later in the piece Trevor is quoting me from, that Bond's conclusions on the Elizabeth Jackson cases changed when it was determined without a doubt that Elizabeth's uterus was removed from her body after death and that he foetus was then removed from the uterus. Initially the statement about abortion had been made when a parcel containing only an empty uterus, umbilical cord and flaps of abdominal skin was the first thing to be retrieved from the Thames and a post mortem on all the remains had not yet been carried out. As I keep telling Trevor over and over-anyone reading the detailed descriptions of Elizabeth's organs of generation will see Bond went to great trouble to examine the birth canal and areas that usually show the tell tale signs of abortion being atempted and there were none.

We've had this same old argument over and over-his official conclusion was that no abortion had been attempted.
Bond and Hebbert's autopsy notes from all four cases are official and the most detailed descriptions of the torsos that we have. Their opinion was that a slaughterer or horse knacker was responsible or someone accustomed to cutting up animals. None of the body parts had been injected in the veins with fluid used when body parts are used as medical specimens and the appearance of skin created at the tops of the arms etc after removal. was not the way a medial man would do it.
The other dissertation is quoting newspaper articles and not these autopsy notes.

The doctors no doubt gave their opinions based on their own individual level of surgical skills. Not everyone in the medical profession would have been able to perform the same level of skill as those doctors thats why organs and bodies etc were in demand to enable medical personell the opportunity to develop their skills. .

I also have to ask how can a doctor give an opinion with regards to how a horseslaughter would have gone about carrying out surgical procedures on a human. Its ridiculous to accept those opinions.

[Edward Stow]

Would they have used venetian blind cord for any purpose at Pickford's?

They used a special venetian blind cord manufactured off Poplar High Street and it was used excelusively at their Broad Street depot for wrapping parcels of meat.

Or not.

[Monty]

The doctors no doubt gave their opinions based on their own individual level of surgical skills. Not everyone in the medical profession would have been able to perform the same level of skill as those doctors thats why organs and bodies etc were in demand to enable medical personell the opportunity to develop their skills. .

I also have to ask how can a doctor give an opinion with regards to how a horseslaughter would have gone about carrying out surgical procedures on a human. Its ridiculous to accept those opinions.

A staggering statement.

How can a policeman give opnion on medical matters?....if we are playing that game.

Monty

[Monty]

Would they have used venetian blind cord for any purpose at Pickford's?

They used a special venetian blind cord manufactured off Poplar High Street and it was used excelusively at their Broad Street depot for wrapping parcels of meat.

Or not.

A simple "I don't know Debs" would have sufficed Ed.

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

A staggering statement.

How can a policeman give opnion on medical matters?....if we are playing that game.

Monty

I am not giving an opinion I am questioning the opinions given by others and as you know Ripperolgy is built upon opinions

[Edward Stow]

Thanks for your advice on how to post comments on forums Neil

[Monty]

Thanks for your advice on how to post comments on forums Neil

No worries Ed.

Monty

[Jennifer Shelden]

[QUOTE=Trevor Marriott;198726][QUOTE=Tom_Wescott;198705]

Before you get too carried away talking about murders I think you should first establish that the torsos were the subject of murders and not something else less sinister.

Well then you obvioulsy didnet read the report thoroughly or were not able to assess and evaluate them correctly.

Talking of such .

I love that Michael Jackson song man in the mirror you should listen to it

[Debra Arif]

The doctors no doubt gave their opinions based on their own individual level of surgical skills. Not everyone in the medical profession would have been able to perform the same level of skill as those doctors thats why organs and bodies etc were in demand to enable medical personell the opportunity to develop their skills. .

I also have to ask how can a doctor give an opinion with regards to how a horseslaughter would have gone about carrying out surgical procedures on a human. Its ridiculous to accept those opinions.

Bond was a surgeon as well, an actual practising surgeon at the Westminster Hospital.

Dismembering a body is not a surgical procedure-doctors never had to do it-butchers did with animals-that's how they make joints of meat. Animals have joints just the same as humans and where a butcher would cut the flesh in a sweeping motion and pop a joint and disarticulate it expertly a surgeon would rarely have to do that-even when removing a limb it's rarely done exactly at a joint. This is what was being commented upon. They would know from their own medical training that doctors don't perform anything like that.
But it's not me that needs the 'torso killer' to have been a butcher or knacker or unskilled person and not a medical man so you best argue the toss with Ed and Christer over that one.

The question about blind cord was tongue in cheek, Neil.

[Debra Arif]

These are Bond and Hebbert's observations on the arm discovered in the Thames Sept. 88 and later found to belong to the Whitehall torso. Investigation into whether there was a medical reason for removal of the arm, either due to disease while the patient was alive, or in the dissecting room on a dead body was concluded not to be the case for these reasons:

[Trevor Marriott]

Bond was a surgeon as well, an actual practising surgeon at the Westminster Hospital.

Dismembering a body is not a surgical procedure-doctors never had to do it-butchers did with animals-that's how they make joints of meat. Animals have joints just the same as humans and where a butcher would cut the flesh in a sweeping motion and pop a joint and disarticulate it expertly a surgeon would rarely have to do that-even when removing a limb it's rarely done exactly at a joint. This is what was being commented upon. They would know from their own medical training that doctors don't perform anything like that.
But it's not me that needs the 'torso killer' to have been a butcher or knacker or unskilled person and not a medical man so you best argue the toss with Ed and Christer over that one.

The question about blind cord was tongue in cheek, Neil.

Doctors perfomed amputation of limbs. Doctors also have to open abdomens and remove organs isnt that professional dismembering. As i said earlier different degrees of professionalism dependent on experience.

You are also forgetting the back street abortionist I wonder how many women died during back street abortions. When that happened those abortionosts had to get rid of the body, what easier way to do it than to cut it up and wrap it up and dump it in the thames.

If these women had been murdered they would have to have been murdered in side somewhere either their room or in the killers room. Either way the room would be covered in blood. If it were their room and they suddenly dissapeared then someone would have reported them missing and entry later gained to that room and someone would have seen all the blood etc.

On the other side if the kiiler had murdered them outside would he have taken the risk and the time needed to cut up and parcel up the body parts and then remove them from the crime scene and dispose of them all in one go.

I dont need to argue with anyone the facts speak for themselves there is no direct evidence to prove that these women had been murdered.

Dr Bond hit the nail on the head witj Jackson in the first instance when he indicated she had died as a result of failed medical procedure (abortion)

[Jennifer Shelden]

I dont need to argue with anyone the facts speak for themselves there is no direct evidence to prove that these women had been murdered.

What is an alternative plausible hypothesis?

[Debra Arif]

The facts do speak for themselves, yes. The fact is trained medical men who were there and did the autopsies fully investigated the abortion angle in all cases and concluded it could not be so in the case of Jackson, Pinchin or the Rainham torso, for differing reasons.

We've been through the death through abortion angle many times on these boards, it would work as a theory only if the abortionist had first administered Jackson with poison that killed her immediately. Any other scenario does not fit with the evidence shown by the post mortem examination of the internal and external organs of generation. There was no sign of instrument use and no damage to any part of the vagina or cervix.
The majority of women who died though having abortions died many days, sometimes weeks later and normally from septicaemia. I have read loads on the subject.