Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Szwarz/Shine/Schwartz ~ ?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Hi again Debra. On the JewishGen school page , top left of columns

    Date of Birth
    Date of admittance
    number
    Last school.
    It is similar on ancestry so I would think it is the address on admission
    They do seem to have jumped about a bit Unless it was a transcription error...
    Thanks again ..
    Pat.....

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Pat Marshall View Post
      Hi again Debra. On the JewishGen school page , top left of columns

      Date of Birth
      Date of admittance
      number
      Last school.
      It is similar on ancestry so I would think it is the address on admission
      They do seem to have jumped about a bit Unless it was a transcription error...
      Thanks again ..
      Pat.....
      Pat, the JFS records also give the date of leaving, it's the date on the right hand side in the transcripts I posted, although I also think it is probably the date of admission when the address was taken, I'm not certain.

      Name Date of Birth
      Date Admitted
      Number
      Last School Parent or Guardian Address Date Left
      Reason Left Notes

      Comment


      • #18
        Yes I can see it now (such a doughnut) Thanks Debra..

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Anna Morris
          Herein are my findings on a Szwarz with what I believe is a Hungarian spelling. I didn't hazard a guess on spelling on the other Israel Schwartz thread because I was unsure about using W. Some Slavonic languages--like Croatian--do not use W.

          I stand by my research here on the name spelling but think some of my other ideas are erroneous. So for what it's worth, there is some research into the Szwarz name.
          Resurrecting this just for a quick linguistical quip:

          Szwarz would probably be a Polish spelling of Schwartz, surely not Hungarian.

          "Sz" in Polish is the "sh" of English and the "sch" of German.

          Just for confusion's sake in Hungarian "Sz" is the "s" of English and "s" is the "sh" of English (we use it exactly the other way around with the Poles). So it is surely not a Hungarian rendering of the word – in Hungarian Schwartz would simply stay Schwartz, given that Jewish family names were usually German names from the late 18th century in the area. The reason for this is that Kaiser Joseph II declared German the official language of the whole Austrian Empire and required Jewish people to take up family names, which were in German.

          Schwarz or Schwartz = Black, and probably it indicated that the family was of a poorer background, as Jewish families wearing colour names as family names (Schwar(t)z, Grün, Roth, Weiss, Braun so Black, Green, Red, White, Brown) were usually of a lower background.

          Merchants, craftsmen etc. often chose more posh German family names (like Goldstein, Goldmark, Goldberg --> people trading with gold). The "posh" names could have been more expensive, as one needed to pay a fee for them!

          In Galicia (the Polish territory, now mostly in Ukrainian land, occupied from the late 18th century by Austria) the rules were the same, so Jewish families usually took up Germanic names.

          Israel Schwartz in Hungarian rendering would be Schwartz (or Schwarz or Schwarcz) Izráel (or Izrael).

          In the 1880 Budapest registry of addresses we have 44 people with the name Schwartz, Schwarz or Schwarcz. The only Schwartz Izráel was a shoemaker, living at Szerecsen utca 6.

          Comment


          • #20
            Thank you, Gergely, for correct information. (My original premise was something I had read a long time ago and absolutely anything can be written down.) I admire your ability to keep all the spellings and sounds in mind.

            The second Ripperology question about Schwartz is that he was referred to in the press as "a Hungarian." We do not know how to define this. He could have been a German from the Austro-Hungarian Empire. He could have been Hungarian. Or he could have been something else and people guessed at his nationality. I think one report also suggested he was Polish.

            My basic thought on this is that Israel Schwartz' primary language was not regular German and English speakers around him sensed that. A translator was found but we have no idea who that was or what language was used.

            I have also seem comments wondering if Yiddish was used with Schwartz and if not, why not? The general idea I get is that Schwartz' native language was less common that German but that is just my opinion.

            You have no idea how much I appreciate everything you post and all that I can learn from it.
            The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
              Thank you, Gergely, for correct information. (My original premise was something I had read a long time ago and absolutely anything can be written down.) I admire your ability to keep all the spellings and sounds in mind.

              The second Ripperology question about Schwartz is that he was referred to in the press as "a Hungarian." We do not know how to define this. He could have been a German from the Austro-Hungarian Empire. He could have been Hungarian. Or he could have been something else and people guessed at his nationality. I think one report also suggested he was Polish.

              My basic thought on this is that Israel Schwartz' primary language was not regular German and English speakers around him sensed that. A translator was found but we have no idea who that was or what language was used.

              I have also seem comments wondering if Yiddish was used with Schwartz and if not, why not? The general idea I get is that Schwartz' native language was less common that German but that is just my opinion.

              You have no idea how much I appreciate everything you post and all that I can learn from it.
              Add to this that from the pogroms in the 1840s a huge number of Galician Jews (living in territory that could have been considered as Polish/Austrian/or even Russian) fled to Hungary. The peak of the Galician (or Eastern) Jewish immigration to Hungary was 1830–1870, so it is absolutely plausible that someone like Israel Schwartz was born in Galicia and went to London via Hungary.

              According to the local historical sources, Galician Jews predominantly used Yiddish and sometimes Polish. They kept using it after emigration, so they often faced a language barrier even in Central European cities like Budapest or Vienna.

              Quoting a university dissertation: "The official papers were written in compulsory German, but the language of everyday life stayed Yiddish. Galician Jews kept their German-Hebrew mixed language, the Yiddish, even though there were efforts to suppress its usage."

              So I'd hazard a guess that (and I might well be wrong, but it'd be logical)

              Israel Schwartz was not born in Hungary, but either Galicia (under Habsburg rule) or Russia's nearby territories.

              He might have fled Galicia or Russia because of the regular pogroms. In 1881 there were widespread pogroms in Russia, following the assassination of the tsar. Hungarian sources write that a lot of Russian Jews immigrated to Hungary, but very few of them settled – they passed through towards England or the United States.

              He might have settled in Hungary, and moved to London from there. If his "last address" was ever asked, he might've said he came to London from Hungary, which could have been true, but I suspect Hungary was only a "stopover place" for him in migration.

              Hungarian history magazine Rubicon has a neat little article on the Hungarian Jewish population of the late 1800s. This shows that the 1881–1890 period saw rather big emigration amongst the Jewish population.

              "Migration was a multi-step process. From the middle of the 19th century there was notable immigration from Galicia to Hungary's northeastern counties. Then, from about the time of the Compromise (The Austro-Hungarian Compromise of 1867 and the establishment of Austria-Hungary) there was a notable inside migration from the northeastern counties to Budapest and Western Hungary. More and more immigrants from Galicia headed directly for the Hungarian cities."

              Quoting another study: "The Galician Jews first usually settled in the northeastern border counties, having an ethnic majority of Germans, Slovakians or Ruthenes. Until 1840 their settling in cities was restricted. Their mass migration towards the innermost, Hungarian majority counties and their quick urbanisation started afterwards."

              This is a contemporary Hungarian map, the orange/red counties are bordering Galicia, having rather big Jewish population.



              For a lot of these Jewish immigrants Hungary was only a "halfway point". In a few years they emigrated towards the West, mostly the United States - especially the ones coming from Russia.

              Some of them surely went through or settled in London, like the parents of playwright Arnold Wesker; called Joseph Wesker and Leah Perlmutter. They emigrated from Hungary and settled in the East End, in Stepney.

              I might ask some Jewish friends, maybe they can point me to a database. But for example we have a register from 1848, that lists a family of Schwartz in the now non-existant village of Besenyő, Szabolcs county (very much Northeast Hungary today, near Mátészalka).

              The family is listed as:
              Bódog Schwartz (father, 42 years old - so born in 1806). Occupation: sakter (Jewish butcher), reputation: orderly.
              his wife, Terca
              his son, Israel
              his daughters, Betti, Rozi, Hani and Eszter.

              The family is registered living in the village for only 1 year, with no settlement papers. They are in the column "If not [having settlement papers], how long they are living in the country/settlement?", so probably they were fleeing Jews from Galicia or Russia.

              But this is pretty much a needle in a haystack without an age or the wife's name or something more concrete.

              Comment


              • #22
                That is very helpful, Gergely. One news article on Israel Schwartz had an odd, slightly pejorative comment, something like he was an imitation Polander, a fake German....something like that. I think the comment implied Poland. All that could really fit in with what you have explained and it could help explain the confusion in our understanding.
                The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
                  That is very helpful, Gergely. One news article on Israel Schwartz had an odd, slightly pejorative comment, something like he was an imitation Polander, a fake German....something like that. I think the comment implied Poland. All that could really fit in with what you have explained and it could help explain the confusion in our understanding.
                  That is interesting!

                  There is some very good info on Yiddish dialects here, I've never known there were so many branches!

                  Based on this, a Jew from Galicia (West/Central) would speak the Galitsyaner or Polish-Galician Yiddish, one from Eastern Galicia would speak Volinyer Yiddish, "Ukrainian" Yiddish. Both belong to the Eastern European Yiddish branch.

                  Hungarian Jews would speak a transitional Yiddish between the Eastern and the Western Yiddish. And the Jewish population (already settled) in Whitechapel would probably pick up a mix of everything!

                  There is a Hungarian book called Két emberöltő by Lajos Szabolcsi, which is about the Jewish population of Hungary between 1881 and 1931. There is a fun little part about a Jewish congress in Vienna, 1912, and there is a remark in that, quoting:

                  "Zangwill, the tall, thin Englishman with a long face, who tries to make himself understood in the muddled ["zavaros" in the original - pointing to something that is difficult to understand] Yiddish of London's Whitechapel."

                  So for an Eastern or Central European Jew the Whitechapel dialect was something of a riddle!

                  That'd also explain the difficulties in finding an interpreter for Israel Schwartz, who did not speak a word of English. He was likely speaking an Eastern Yiddish dialect; the locals, who were proficient enough in English to do translation in front of a police officer, could have well been speaking another one.

                  The Casebook file on Schwartz lists multiple people who could have been him.

                  I'm quite sure that Israel Schwartz was not Hungarian-born, but an emigrating Galician or Russian Jew, who migrated first to Hungary and then to England. This could be further underlined by the fact that we know from contemporary Hungarian sources that there was a strong wave of immigration, but a lot of those people did not settle and emigrated towards the West.

                  Settled Hungarian Jews were more unlikely to emigrate. There was a very strong, well-assimilated Hungarian Jewish population in Budapest, so much so that Viennese city mayor Karl Lüger called Budapest "Judapest". They held strong positions in trade and culture (mercantiles, café-owners, actors, journalists, publishers, painters, etc.). It looks like immigrant Galician Jews were looked down by the assimilated population and seen as dangerous, as they might have been thought hindering the assimilation of the local Jewish population. Their clothing, their habits, their manners were said to be quite different from the locals, wanting to blend in (remember, Israel Schwartz was mentioned as having a "strong Jewish appearance").

                  Quoting from a study:

                  "Wave upon wave of Jewish immigration came [to Hungary] from Galicia and Russia. These new immigrants were on a culturally lower level than the average Hungarian Jews, making assimilation much more difficult. As soon as a number of Jews assimilated, a new wave of immigration came[...]"


                  Let's look at a possible Israel Schwartz mentioned on Casebook:
                  1891 census

                  Head:
                  Israel Schwartz aged 27 born Poland - Tailor's presser
                  Wife:
                  Eva Schwartz aged 27 born Poland
                  Children:
                  Dinah E aged 6 born Poland
                  Louis aged 1 months born St George's.

                  The strange thing in this is mentioning "Poland" as birthplace. Because there was no Poland. But otherwise if he was a Galician Jew, coming from the (originally) Polish part [under Habsburg rule], he could have been identified as "born in Poland". Otherwise, a quite promising Israel Schwartz.

                  Now Dinah is said to be born in Poland. But in the reports Schwartz is mentioned as a Hungarian.

                  Was there any migration movement from Galicia towards Hungary in 1885 or later?

                  Yes there was. The Hungarian press is full of articles in the winter and spring of 1886 about the Jews immigrating from Galicia. On 21 March 1886 the migration wave was a topic in the Parliament, an MP called Károly Nendtwich interpellated the Home Secretary, Kálmán Tisza "about the immigration of Galician Jews". On 7 April the home secretary is forced to explain the measures taken in connection with the "incoming wave of Galician Jews". These people in other sources are mentioned as "Polish Jews".

                  The antisemitic MPs in the Parliament tried to pass a bill about restricting the settlement of Galician Jews (it did not pass, the Prime Minister was against it).

                  So we can say that there was an immigration wave from Galicia in early 1886 to Hungary, but those who arrived, were not finding a good atmosphere, antisemitic MPs openly trying to regulate their influx to the country. I would hazard a guess that a young family would've probably voted with their feet and left Hungary very soon, after a stopover towards the West.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    That is fascinating, Gergely! It explains a lot.

                    I found the other thread with genealogy research on Schwartz.

                    Another question we have in Ripperology is IF the man seen by Schwartz with Elizabeth Stride, called out "Lipski". If so, what was meant by it? Or was it some other word? There are many suggested possibilities. To narrow the subject, is there a Yiddish or East European word that sounds like that, that would be appropriate to use as a threat or message?

                    Purely at the level of language it has been assumed Lipski was an epithet based on the crime and trial of Lipski the year before. It does not make sense to me that the man committing assault, possibly murder, would cry out "Lipski" to a bystander. (Interesting to me, and for what it's worth and maybe not much, JtR began his activities very little over a year after Lipski was executed.) If Schwartz looked decidedly foreign, like a new arrival, would he have been expected to understand the meaning? Or might there be an East European word, aimed at an East European Jew new to the East End, that would have deep meaning? Schwartz ran away but then there is also the issue of the other man present on Schwartz' side of the street, "Pipeman", who may have been seen as a threat by Schwartz. However that is, I have the feeling Schwartz ran away because Liz was being assaulted AND the word was threatening to him.

                    (One possible Ripperology explanation is that the Lipski's rooming house was actually quite close to Berner Street and some theorize that Schwartz and his family may have rented a room there, thus the word may have been meant in a personal way. There are many possible meanings IF indeed Lipski was the word used.)

                    (Eastern Europe has such a fascinating history. I have a personal, non-Ripperology project and I have tried to learn at least basics for the area. Of special interest to me was the dispensation in the Middle Ages from the Pope of Rome to allow Poland to be Catholic but not under control of Rome. Thus many cultures and religions flourished for a time.)
                    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      My opinion is that the contemporary attribution of "Lipski!" as a local slang curse word can well be and is most probably correct. I cannot really come up with anything better.

                      I can only safely say that it was surely not an insult or threat in Hungarian, as the "psk" voices after each other are totally unlike Hungarian.

                      I've asked a Polish-speaking friend whether there is something similar or Lipski (which is coming from the Polish name of the city of Leipzig in Germany, as a family name) can be used in a different context. She says she cannot think of anything else, apart from a Polish town (Lipsk) being another possible origin of the family name Lipski.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Gergely Marosi View Post
                        My opinion is that the contemporary attribution of "Lipski!" as a local slang curse word can well be and is most probably correct. I cannot really come up with anything better.

                        I can only safely say that it was surely not an insult or threat in Hungarian, as the "psk" voices after each other are totally unlike Hungarian.

                        I've asked a Polish-speaking friend whether there is something similar or Lipski (which is coming from the Polish name of the city of Leipzig in Germany, as a family name) can be used in a different context. She says she cannot think of anything else, apart from a Polish town (Lipsk) being another possible origin of the family name Lipski.
                        Thank you!

                        There are many possibilities for this event, including another one I think has some merit. Some researchers insist Elizabeth Stride was the victim of a domestic assault, former boy friend or something, and not JtR related. I believe she knew the assailant, that he killed her and did so in an awkward, well travelled yard, after she refused to go away with him. She said "no", three times but not loudly, all at a time when JtR was already known and feared. Along the way another researcher suggested the word was "Lizzie", addressed directly to Stride, not Lipski. The whole thing is another dead end with lots of possibilities.
                        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          "The whole thing is another dead end with lots of possibilities."

                          Motto of Ripperology?

                          In this case I cannot really think of a more plausible solution that Schwartz indeed saw the Ripper's assault (I agree with Paul Begg in that it's statistically very unlikely that Stride was the victim of two assaults in the same spot right after each other) and Lipski was used as an insult. I believe the police would've tried to track down the insult and had ample Eastern Europeans to help in solving the puzzle - if they arrived to the deduction that Lipski was used as a slur, probably they were right.

                          But yes, if Stride was not a Ripper work, it might have been a misheard Lizzie aimed at her, instead of Schwartz, who could not make sense of the situation.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Then there is the Nathan Shine/Sasienie information available here and at Casebook as well as at the Sasienie family website, in which Nathan tells a story very similar to that of Israel Schwartz. Main differences are that Nathan is exiting his club and sees a man bent over a woman with a long, thin bladed knife in his hand. The Sasienies were Dutch Jews, I think from Rotterdam. I do not fully remember if Shine was an Anglicized version of Sasienie or if Shines were a branch of the Sasienies.

                            I believe this story also though Nathan supposedly only told close family what he had seen at the time. The similarities in the stories led me on a search to determine if Nathan Shine could have been 'Nathan Schwartz'...etc. I believe these were two different men. One detail that indicates authenticity to some was Nathan's description of the knife since authorities at the time believed JtR used a long, thin bladed knife.

                            Anytime we get anywhere close to defining Liz Stride's demise, one of our members tends to ask, "but what about the cachous?" I cannot try to imagine what happened to Liz without hearing that phrase and then I think about cachous.
                            The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Thanks very much for all the info, Gergely....
                              To Join JTR Forums :
                              Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Gergely Marosi View Post
                                "The whole thing is another dead end with lots of possibilities."

                                Motto of Ripperology?

                                In this case I cannot really think of a more plausible solution that Schwartz indeed saw the Ripper's assault (I agree with Paul Begg in that it's statistically very unlikely that Stride was the victim of two assaults in the same spot right after each other) and Lipski was used as an insult. I believe the police would've tried to track down the insult and had ample Eastern Europeans to help in solving the puzzle - if they arrived to the deduction that Lipski was used as a slur, probably they were right...
                                Hi Gergely and Anna,

                                I tend to agree with the above, although I would allow for the possibility of a double event within the double event, whereby the killer - the ripper IMHO - watched Stride being manhandled, heard the Lipski slur and saw Schwartz witnessing the incident, and then waded in when both men had left the scene, possibly striking while she was still dusting herself off and regaining her composure. In that way the two assaults wouldn't have been a 'statistically very unlikely' coincidence, but merely our active serial killer taking advantage of a not uncommon incident of an unfortunate being abused on the street.

                                The bonus would have been that the obvious suspect would be the abuser, while the killer would not have been seen with his victim at the crucial time. The downside would have been the approaching pony and cart, if this forced him to abandon any mutilation plans, and instead to flee after inflicting the single fatal knife wound. Determined to satisfy his urges that night, he went on to vent his spleen on Eddowes.

                                In 2005, Mark Dixie murdered Sally Anne Bowman in South Croydon, after watching her having an argument with her boyfriend in his car, parked outside her house. When she finally got out and her boyfriend drove off, Dixie struck, swiftly and silently with no witnesses. The attack was particularly brutal, having followed an earlier non-fatal assault in a nearby street, where Dixie was foiled by an approaching taxi. Sally's boyfriend immediately became the prime suspect for her murder and was only cleared by DNA evidence, which was eventually found to match Dixie's, when he was arrested the following year for a pub fight.

                                So this was not only a genuine double event, but the second victim, Sally Anne Bowman, found herself in trouble with two men 'in the same spot right after each other'. No coincidence though, because Dixie was watching and waiting to pounce when the coast was clear.

                                Apologies for the diversion!

                                Love,

                                Caz
                                X
                                I wish I were two puppies then I could play together - Storm Petersen

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X