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  • #31
    Hi there,


    It seems you have missed out on the Polish word for Nosy.


    wścibski


    Which can indeed sound like Lipski, particularly if not heard clearly and if one was aware of Lipski, only a street away.
    And in the context certainly fits the actions.



    Certainly not concrete, but a very viable alternative.


    Steve

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Steve Blomer View Post
      Hi there,


      It seems you have missed out on the Polish word for Nosy.


      wścibski


      Which can indeed sound like Lipski, particularly if not heard clearly and if one was aware of Lipski, only a street away.
      And in the context certainly fits the actions.



      Certainly not concrete, but a very viable alternative.


      Steve
      That sounds good! On the other hand, Schwartz, registered as being Polish-born and having a good probability of coming from Galicia maybe could have understood this correctly, so then he would've reported it correctly, not as Lipski?

      wścibski and Lipski would be more similar for someone totally unfamiliar with Polish and the end of the two words indeed are similar (even the "b" is more like a "p"). Otherwise the "śc" is quite strongly pronounced, I don't think someone who lived in a territory where Polish was used could have misheard it.

      For anyone who wants to have a listen in Polish:

      Lipski: https://forvo.com/search/lipski/
      wścibski: https://forvo.com/search/w%C5%9Bcibski/

      It could fit the narrative though, I totally give that! And the word was in use back then, it seems, because it features in a nearly contemporary text. A nice alternative for sure!

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Caroline Brown View Post
        Hi Gergely and Anna,

        I tend to agree with the above, although I would allow for the possibility of a double event within the double event, whereby the killer - the ripper IMHO - watched Stride being manhandled, heard the Lipski slur and saw Schwartz witnessing the incident, and then waded in when both men had left the scene, possibly striking while she was still dusting herself off and regaining her composure. In that way the two assaults wouldn't have been a 'statistically very unlikely' coincidence, but merely our active serial killer taking advantage of a not uncommon incident of an unfortunate being abused on the street.

        The bonus would have been that the obvious suspect would be the abuser, while the killer would not have been seen with his victim at the crucial time. The downside would have been the approaching pony and cart, if this forced him to abandon any mutilation plans, and instead to flee after inflicting the single fatal knife wound. Determined to satisfy his urges that night, he went on to vent his spleen on Eddowes.

        In 2005, Mark Dixie murdered Sally Anne Bowman in South Croydon, after watching her having an argument with her boyfriend in his car, parked outside her house. When she finally got out and her boyfriend drove off, Dixie struck, swiftly and silently with no witnesses. The attack was particularly brutal, having followed an earlier non-fatal assault in a nearby street, where Dixie was foiled by an approaching taxi. Sally's boyfriend immediately became the prime suspect for her murder and was only cleared by DNA evidence, which was eventually found to match Dixie's, when he was arrested the following year for a pub fight.

        So this was not only a genuine double event, but the second victim, Sally Anne Bowman, found herself in trouble with two men 'in the same spot right after each other'. No coincidence though, because Dixie was watching and waiting to pounce when the coast was clear.

        Apologies for the diversion!

        Love,

        Caz
        X
        So you say that the Ripper basically jumped on the opportunity? It's a very interesting thought!

        Does the timeline allow enough time between the Schwartz sighting and assault, the wait for Schwartz and the assaulting man leaving, sneaking in, slashing the winded Stride's throat and get disturbed by Diemschutz about 1:00?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Caroline Brown View Post
          Hi Gergely and Anna,

          I tend to agree with the above, although I would allow for the possibility of a double event within the double event, whereby the killer - the ripper IMHO - watched Stride being manhandled, heard the Lipski slur and saw Schwartz witnessing the incident, and then waded in when both men had left the scene, possibly striking while she was still dusting herself off and regaining her composure. In that way the two assaults wouldn't have been a 'statistically very unlikely' coincidence, but merely our active serial killer taking advantage of a not uncommon incident of an unfortunate being abused on the street.

          The bonus would have been that the obvious suspect would be the abuser, while the killer would not have been seen with his victim at the crucial time. The downside would have been the approaching pony and cart, if this forced him to abandon any mutilation plans, and instead to flee after inflicting the single fatal knife wound. Determined to satisfy his urges that night, he went on to vent his spleen on Eddowes.

          In 2005, Mark Dixie murdered Sally Anne Bowman in South Croydon, after watching her having an argument with her boyfriend in his car, parked outside her house. When she finally got out and her boyfriend drove off, Dixie struck, swiftly and silently with no witnesses. The attack was particularly brutal, having followed an earlier non-fatal assault in a nearby street, where Dixie was foiled by an approaching taxi. Sally's boyfriend immediately became the prime suspect for her murder and was only cleared by DNA evidence, which was eventually found to match Dixie's, when he was arrested the following year for a pub fight.

          So this was not only a genuine double event, but the second victim, Sally Anne Bowman, found herself in trouble with two men 'in the same spot right after each other'. No coincidence though, because Dixie was watching and waiting to pounce when the coast was clear.

          Apologies for the diversion!

          Love,

          Caz
          X

          Caz.
          The question I will ask here, I I have asked it of many who propose either Pipeman or another unknown assailant, Why the need or desire to replace BS man?


          It seems to complicate things, when there is no reason to?


          Be interested to know the reasoning behind the thinking.


          Happy New year btw


          Steve

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Gergely Marosi View Post
            So you say that the Ripper basically jumped on the opportunity? It's a very interesting thought!

            Does the timeline allow enough time between the Schwartz sighting and assault, the wait for Schwartz and the assaulting man leaving, sneaking in, slashing the winded Stride's throat and get disturbed by Diemschutz about 1:00?

            Well, I've never been satisfied as to why Stride was standing in that gateway in the first place. C/w the fact she had just been seen (12:35) talking with the man carrying the parcel (PC Smith suspect). Where did he go?


            If Stride was on a prearranged date, as some think, then why was she by herself in this gateway?
            Alternately, if she was soliciting, why was she by herself?
            I don't think she was by herself.
            Every time Stride had been seen that night she had been seen with a man.

            I'm inclined to think Stride & 'Parcel-man' were both standing in the gateway.
            Parcel-man was just deeper in the shadows, out of sight.

            The Broad-shoulder-man staggered by, recognised Stride as soliciting Parcel-man, and basically pushed or pulled at her, as if to say, "we don't want your sort around here", or words to that effect.
            Drunks can often have one of those 'holier than thou' moments.

            Schwartz hurrying passed more focused on the assault, didn't see Parcel-man in the shadows, but Broad-shouldered-man did.
            Stride was already with her killer - Parcel-man.


            Just my speculation.
            Regards, Jon S.
            "
            The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
            " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
            Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

            Comment


            • #36
              Stride had a friend in the area, so was probably familiar with the club. And she was said to have worked/cleaned for the Jews, so maybe she was hoping to earn a few pence sweeping up after the club members had departed.

              The club caretaker was never interviewed as far as I’m aware. Perhaps he deliberately kept a low profile.

              Comment


              • #37
                Some think Stride had made an effort to clean herself up that evening as if she was going on a date.
                Not the kind of thing a woman might do if she intends to pick up a quick cleaning job on her night out.
                Likewise, if she is soliciting, why waste time standing around. It doesn't seem to be a well known pickup point for prostitutes.

                The main problem I have with BS-man being the killer is this careless, noisy, assault in full view of witnesses. This never happened in the Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes or Kelly cases. It is just so out of character.

                Anyhow, leaving that aside. We are led to believe BS-man was drunk or "tipsy", yet we only read that in the press statement.
                I don't see where Swanson mentioned this detail in his report about Schwartz.

                Maybe this detail was not true.
                Perhaps, the stagger of this man was more due to a limp, than being drunk?
                Did BS-man have an awkward gait?

                Back in the Chapman case one witness (Thimbleby) saw a man on the morning of the murder running down Hanbury street about 6:00am, with an awkward gait.
                We read:

                He was hurrying from Hanbury-street, below where the murder took place, into Brick-lane. He was walking, almost running, and had a peculiar gait, his knees not bending when he walked......... He was dressed in a dark stiff hat and cutaway coat, reaching to his knees. His face was clean shaven, and he seemed about 30 years old. Thimbleby says he can identify him.

                Later in the Kelly case one particular suspect drew attention to himself by accosting women (unfortunates?) in the street. He was described by several witnesses.

                “Shortly afterwards, it is stated a respectably dressed man accosted Kelly and offered her money. The appearance of this man is far from definitely ascertainable. Some say he wore a high silk hat and brown overcoat; others that he was habited in dark mixture trousers, long, dark overcoat, and low-crowned, brown hat, and that he carried the now famous shiny, black bag in his hand. In stature he is variously described as of medium height and slight, short and thick set, and of awkward gait. Nearly all the accounts agree, however, as to his wearing a black moustache and having a very remarkable and unpleasant glare in his eyes.
                Sunday Times, 11 Nov. 1888.
                Regards, Jon S.
                "
                The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
                  Some think Stride had made an effort to clean herself up that evening as if she was going on a date.
                  Not the kind of thing a woman might do if she intends to pick up a quick cleaning job on her night out.
                  Likewise, if she is soliciting, why waste time standing around. It doesn't seem to be a well known pickup point for prostitutes.

                  The main problem I have with BS-man being the killer is this careless, noisy, assault in full view of witnesses. This never happened in the Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes or Kelly cases. It is just so out of character.

                  Anyhow, leaving that aside. We are led to believe BS-man was drunk or "tipsy", yet we only read that in the press statement.
                  I don't see where Swanson mentioned this detail in his report about Schwartz.

                  Maybe this detail was not true.
                  Perhaps, the stagger of this man was more due to a limp, than being drunk?
                  Did BS-man have an awkward gait?

                  Back in the Chapman case one witness (Thimbleby) saw a man on the morning of the murder running down Hanbury street about 6:00am, with an awkward gait.
                  We read:

                  He was hurrying from Hanbury-street, below where the murder took place, into Brick-lane. He was walking, almost running, and had a peculiar gait, his knees not bending when he walked......... He was dressed in a dark stiff hat and cutaway coat, reaching to his knees. His face was clean shaven, and he seemed about 30 years old. Thimbleby says he can identify him.

                  Later in the Kelly case one particular suspect drew attention to himself by accosting women (unfortunates?) in the street. He was described by several witnesses.

                  “Shortly afterwards, it is stated a respectably dressed man accosted Kelly and offered her money. The appearance of this man is far from definitely ascertainable. Some say he wore a high silk hat and brown overcoat; others that he was habited in dark mixture trousers, long, dark overcoat, and low-crowned, brown hat, and that he carried the now famous shiny, black bag in his hand. In stature he is variously described as of medium height and slight, short and thick set, and of awkward gait. Nearly all the accounts agree, however, as to his wearing a black moustache and having a very remarkable and unpleasant glare in his eyes.
                  Sunday Times, 11 Nov. 1888.



                  Interesting Jon.


                  you point out the apparent difference in approach if it were BS Man, and of course the injuries are themselves very different from the other cases.


                  My problem has I have said is I see no Need for a second attacker, it is almost as if some do not want, him to be.


                  Tom Wescott of course suggests that he may be Morris Eagles, but again I. Am far from convinçed by that suggestion.


                  steve

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Dutfield's Yard was a perfectly awful place in which JtR could fully indulge himself. I have always considered Hanbury Street one of the riskiest spots in the series, largely due to the privy in the backyard, but even so, the killer was creative with the body of his victim and we could assume he wanted to do more the next time.

                    On Berner Street there was a club which had had a large meeting just a bit earlier. Some accounts say singing was still going on. People inside buildings tend to leave those buildings and who can say what door they will chose for egress? Beyond the meeting, there was a pub across the street. It was around closing time there, too.

                    The Double Event happened earlier in time than the other murders. The chance for the killer to be disturbed inside the gate of Dutfield's Yard was further increased by Berner Street in such close proximity.

                    Five murders is a small sample from which to detect patterns but perhaps the killer's pattern was to ask the women to go with him to a spot he had previously chosen. Mrs. Long related the conversation on the street between a man and a woman she believed was Annie Chapman; "Will you," with the reply, "Yes". Kate Eddowes may have stood talking to a man near a passage into Mitre Square. Mary Kelly must have brought the killer home with her.

                    So I have a strong feeling about BS Man talking to Liz, then trying to pull her away from the gate, I assume to go across Berner Street. She cried "no" three times but not loudly. I think she knew him, did not want to go with him and he had to kill her so she would not tell tales.* I think she did not think he was a serious threat, perhaps she felt he was annoying and obnoxious but harmless. Had he succeeded in pulling her along with him, where might her body have been found? In the yard of the board school? (* At this point we could interject, "What about the cachous?")

                    Wicker Man and I are both extremely interested in the odd or awkward gait of a man (or men) seen near the various crimes. Maybe he was a known, partly crippled man in the area and Liz thought she could out-run him. (I still think the best chance of identifying JtR will be to find an odd man who walked with difficulty.)

                    Someone along the way suggested Liz was standing where she was in order to hear the singing still going on in the club. Some reports said Russians were singing. Perhaps it was folk music that reminded Liz of Sweden. At this time we have all the music we want with a few clicks online but back then, there was little opportunity for someone like Liz to hear special music.

                    News reports indicate that after Hanbury Street, women were pairing up on the streets at night. Liz was not so drunk or desperate that she had to stand alone in a dark gateway. I like the idea that she was listening to music. Though she was seen with men that evening/morning, no money was found on her person and we have no reports in that time frame of her having drinks or something to eat. Since the killer seems to have been interrupted, he probably did not have the chance to rob her, if he did rob his victims. Was she soliciting or socializing? Perhaps she was interviewing for a replacement for Michael Kidney.

                    I believe it was Schwartz who said the man "lurched along as though drunk." A stiff-legged gait could appear so. But if JtR had a stiff leg or two, how well could he crouch beside his victims once he had them on the ground? That is a good point to ponder!

                    All that said, I continually ponder whether the Double Event was done by a different hand than the one that killed Polly, Annie and Mary. There were so many differences in the Double Event and there is to me, a hint that the killer was trying to implicate Jews, socialists, immigrants, or to make a political statement of some kind.
                    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Gergely Marosi View Post
                      So you say that the Ripper basically jumped on the opportunity? It's a very interesting thought!
                      I'm not wedded to the idea, Gergely. I just wondered if the Stride case might be anything like the Sally Anne Bowman one - where the killer happened to see a woman and a man having a bit of a fight and then waded in when the man had departed and the woman was left alone, licking her proverbial wounds and not as alert to this new danger as she might otherwise have been.

                      Does the timeline allow enough time between the Schwartz sighting and assault, the wait for Schwartz and the assaulting man leaving, sneaking in, slashing the winded Stride's throat and get disturbed by Diemschutz about 1:00?
                      Yes, I think it probably does. A lot can happen in just five minutes, let alone fifteen. And of course, it wasn't necessarily Diemschutz who disturbed the killer. The location itself was far from ideal, with club members coming and going. He was not obliged to do a carbon copy of Chapman's murder, if he wasn't as happy with the circumstances in Dutfield's Yard that night. I do think he was an opportunistic killer, who took his chances as he found them - or not, as the case may be. There were risks involved with every event.

                      Love,

                      Caz
                      X
                      I wish I were two puppies then I could play together - Storm Petersen

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Steve Blomer View Post
                        Caz.
                        The question I will ask here, I I have asked it of many who propose either Pipeman or another unknown assailant, Why the need or desire to replace BS man?
                        None, from my point of view, Steve. I am open to either scenario because they both seem perfectly plausible and in line with other documented killers' behaviour, whether BS man went on to slit Stride's throat [and may or may not have been the ripper], or the ripper took over when BS man left, seeing an opportunity when Stride was recovering from the man's rough treatment.

                        It might more easily explain the cachous, if she was taking them out of a pocket after straightening her clothing, and was thus preoccupied when taken completely unawares by the ripper in the shadows, who could have witnessed the altercation with BS man.

                        Love,

                        Caz
                        X
                        I wish I were two puppies then I could play together - Storm Petersen

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I rule out BS man, because of the cachous. He threw Stride onto the pavement. If she got up still clutching her cachous, she must have had them nailed to her hand. Alternatively, if she took out the cachous after the attack, then it shows remarkable patience on the part of BS-Ripper man to let her have some refreshment before murdering her. And remarkable coolness on Stride's part, if her response to being thrown down was to stay in the same place and suck a good old cachou.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            My strongest opinion on the matter is that Liz knew BS Man, thought he was obnoxious, a nuisance maybe but reasonably harmless and certainly not the Whitechapel fiend. She told him to go away and thought he did. Maybe she was even entering the yard in order to knock on the door and seek shelter in case he tried to get her to go with him again. Maybe he had crossed the street and appeared to enter the pub, not far enough away for her comfort.

                            He did not go very far away and he returned rapidly with the purpose of silencing her.

                            I just got a thought about the cachous. Liz did not seem to be drunk that night but we cannot absolutely say what she did or did not have to drink. Perhaps the cachous were to cover the smell of drink on her breath. If she planned to enter the club for protection, if she knew for instance that a woman was likely to answer the door, she may have been careful to hide any effects of alcohol. That could explain why she had cachous in her hand so soon after being attacked.
                            The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              When I mentioned BS man/Ripper I should have said that a case has been made for BS man being Kidney. I suppose if he was, Liz might have thought he'd calmed down enough for her to have a quick cachou.


                              I just don't see BS man as the Ripper.


                              Anna, the impression I got was that the (non-religious) Jews at the club were having a knees-up that night during which alcohol flowed. So I don't see why Liz would have felt too embarrassed about knocking.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                                When I mentioned BS man/Ripper I should have said that a case has been made for BS man being Kidney. I suppose if he was, Liz might have thought he'd calmed down enough for her to have a quick cachou.


                                I just don't see BS man as the Ripper.


                                Anna, the impression I got was that the (non-religious) Jews at the club were having a knees-up that night during which alcohol flowed. So I don't see why Liz would have felt too embarrassed about knocking.
                                I thought about that before I commented. In general Jews are not heavy drinkers though heavy drinking is approved of at times. We don't know how much Liz knew about the club. Mrs. Deimschutz(?) was working in the kitchen? Maybe Liz was cautious about approaching a woman with alcohol on her breath? Maybe she knew this woman did not approve of alcohol? Maybe Liz wanted whoever she encountered to believe her story and not send her away as just being drunk? Liz had taken extra care in dressing that evening and had a flower in her buttonhole. Perhaps she wanted to be sure she was presentable, so to speak. Many women in those days were at the forefront of the temperance movement. Maybe Liz was very cautious about approaching a woman for help?

                                There is also the possibility that Liz had a speech impediment. Remember she was called 'Mother Gum' by some. Perhaps, like Demosthenes who put pebbles in his mouth, cachous helped Liz speak better.
                                The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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