Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Szwarz/Shine/Schwartz ~ ?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Howard Brown
    replied
    Bump Up

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Considering Robert's educated and classic response below, I assume clubs WERE licensed. Big cities like London seem to have ways to license just about everything.

    We know that individuals were frequently charged with selling alcohol without a license or doing after hours sales. If a club allowed drinking, how was it licensed? Did it sell alcohol? If members brought their own bottles, could they drink all night long? Once the pubs closed, could private clubs be venues where drinking could continue?

    I should have made a Point to Ponder.

    My point is, the C-5 seem to have all been killed when pubs were closed. The Double Event started with Liz about the 1:00 AM closing time and the others happened later in the morning but before the 6:00 AM (?) opening time. I get a picture of JtR getting liquored up at the pubs then acting out on his fantasies. A number of serial killers do this sort of thing, drink up their courage.

    But considering Polly, Annie and Mary, Jack would have had a number of hours to sober up and lose that courage. Could he have extended the evening and continued drinking at a private club? Can we match the murder night/mornings with special gatherings at any of the clubs? We can do this with the Double Event. How about the others?

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
    (KNOCK ON DOOR. MRS DIEMSCHUTZ OPENS)


    MRS D : Yes?


    LIZ : Blow, winds, and crack your cheeks! rage! blow!
    You cataracts and hurricanoes, spout
    Till you have drench'd our steeples, drown'd the cocks!


    MRS D : What are you talking about? The weather's fine. (SNIFFS) You been drinking?


    LIZ : Um - I am a Jew. Hath
    not a Jew eyes? hath not a Jew hands, organs,
    dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with
    the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject
    to the same diseases, healed by the same means,
    warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as
    a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed?


    MRS D : That's true. That's very true. All right, come in - but leave Jack the Ripper outside. I've got a licence to keep.


    Now that's more like it! A real masterpiece! That should be a weekly caption contest winner. As You see I have already voted!

    Leave a comment:


  • Robert Linford
    replied
    (KNOCK ON DOOR. MRS DIEMSCHUTZ OPENS)


    MRS D : Yes?


    LIZ : Blow, winds, and crack your cheeks! rage! blow!
    You cataracts and hurricanoes, spout
    Till you have drench'd our steeples, drown'd the cocks!


    MRS D : What are you talking about? The weather's fine. (SNIFFS) You been drinking?


    LIZ : Um - I am a Jew. Hath
    not a Jew eyes? hath not a Jew hands, organs,
    dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with
    the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject
    to the same diseases, healed by the same means,
    warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as
    a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed?


    MRS D : That's true. That's very true. All right, come in - but leave Jack the Ripper outside. I've got a licence to keep.

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
    Hi Anna


    Well, I'll have to excuse myself from this discussion as I have more chance of understanding quantum mechanics than female psychology.
    Oh....I expected a Shakespeare quote. Can't you imaging Liz furiously brushing her skirt before going out and cursing softly, "Out damned spot! Out, I say!"?

    There is food for though in what I have suggested. I would also suggest, if Liz took time to pull out her cachous, she was not running for her life and she thought she had enough time to present herself decently. Maybe BS Man did walk away but saw her approaching, or thought she was approaching, the back door of the club, so he pounced.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robert Linford
    replied
    Hi Anna


    Well, I'll have to excuse myself from this discussion as I have more chance of understanding quantum mechanics than female psychology.

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
    When I mentioned BS man/Ripper I should have said that a case has been made for BS man being Kidney. I suppose if he was, Liz might have thought he'd calmed down enough for her to have a quick cachou.


    I just don't see BS man as the Ripper.


    Anna, the impression I got was that the (non-religious) Jews at the club were having a knees-up that night during which alcohol flowed. So I don't see why Liz would have felt too embarrassed about knocking.
    I thought about that before I commented. In general Jews are not heavy drinkers though heavy drinking is approved of at times. We don't know how much Liz knew about the club. Mrs. Deimschutz(?) was working in the kitchen? Maybe Liz was cautious about approaching a woman with alcohol on her breath? Maybe she knew this woman did not approve of alcohol? Maybe Liz wanted whoever she encountered to believe her story and not send her away as just being drunk? Liz had taken extra care in dressing that evening and had a flower in her buttonhole. Perhaps she wanted to be sure she was presentable, so to speak. Many women in those days were at the forefront of the temperance movement. Maybe Liz was very cautious about approaching a woman for help?

    There is also the possibility that Liz had a speech impediment. Remember she was called 'Mother Gum' by some. Perhaps, like Demosthenes who put pebbles in his mouth, cachous helped Liz speak better.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robert Linford
    replied
    When I mentioned BS man/Ripper I should have said that a case has been made for BS man being Kidney. I suppose if he was, Liz might have thought he'd calmed down enough for her to have a quick cachou.


    I just don't see BS man as the Ripper.


    Anna, the impression I got was that the (non-religious) Jews at the club were having a knees-up that night during which alcohol flowed. So I don't see why Liz would have felt too embarrassed about knocking.

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    My strongest opinion on the matter is that Liz knew BS Man, thought he was obnoxious, a nuisance maybe but reasonably harmless and certainly not the Whitechapel fiend. She told him to go away and thought he did. Maybe she was even entering the yard in order to knock on the door and seek shelter in case he tried to get her to go with him again. Maybe he had crossed the street and appeared to enter the pub, not far enough away for her comfort.

    He did not go very far away and he returned rapidly with the purpose of silencing her.

    I just got a thought about the cachous. Liz did not seem to be drunk that night but we cannot absolutely say what she did or did not have to drink. Perhaps the cachous were to cover the smell of drink on her breath. If she planned to enter the club for protection, if she knew for instance that a woman was likely to answer the door, she may have been careful to hide any effects of alcohol. That could explain why she had cachous in her hand so soon after being attacked.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robert Linford
    replied
    I rule out BS man, because of the cachous. He threw Stride onto the pavement. If she got up still clutching her cachous, she must have had them nailed to her hand. Alternatively, if she took out the cachous after the attack, then it shows remarkable patience on the part of BS-Ripper man to let her have some refreshment before murdering her. And remarkable coolness on Stride's part, if her response to being thrown down was to stay in the same place and suck a good old cachou.

    Leave a comment:


  • Caroline Brown
    replied
    Originally posted by Steve Blomer View Post
    Caz.
    The question I will ask here, I I have asked it of many who propose either Pipeman or another unknown assailant, Why the need or desire to replace BS man?
    None, from my point of view, Steve. I am open to either scenario because they both seem perfectly plausible and in line with other documented killers' behaviour, whether BS man went on to slit Stride's throat [and may or may not have been the ripper], or the ripper took over when BS man left, seeing an opportunity when Stride was recovering from the man's rough treatment.

    It might more easily explain the cachous, if she was taking them out of a pocket after straightening her clothing, and was thus preoccupied when taken completely unawares by the ripper in the shadows, who could have witnessed the altercation with BS man.

    Love,

    Caz
    X

    Leave a comment:


  • Caroline Brown
    replied
    Originally posted by Gergely Marosi View Post
    So you say that the Ripper basically jumped on the opportunity? It's a very interesting thought!
    I'm not wedded to the idea, Gergely. I just wondered if the Stride case might be anything like the Sally Anne Bowman one - where the killer happened to see a woman and a man having a bit of a fight and then waded in when the man had departed and the woman was left alone, licking her proverbial wounds and not as alert to this new danger as she might otherwise have been.

    Does the timeline allow enough time between the Schwartz sighting and assault, the wait for Schwartz and the assaulting man leaving, sneaking in, slashing the winded Stride's throat and get disturbed by Diemschutz about 1:00?
    Yes, I think it probably does. A lot can happen in just five minutes, let alone fifteen. And of course, it wasn't necessarily Diemschutz who disturbed the killer. The location itself was far from ideal, with club members coming and going. He was not obliged to do a carbon copy of Chapman's murder, if he wasn't as happy with the circumstances in Dutfield's Yard that night. I do think he was an opportunistic killer, who took his chances as he found them - or not, as the case may be. There were risks involved with every event.

    Love,

    Caz
    X

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Dutfield's Yard was a perfectly awful place in which JtR could fully indulge himself. I have always considered Hanbury Street one of the riskiest spots in the series, largely due to the privy in the backyard, but even so, the killer was creative with the body of his victim and we could assume he wanted to do more the next time.

    On Berner Street there was a club which had had a large meeting just a bit earlier. Some accounts say singing was still going on. People inside buildings tend to leave those buildings and who can say what door they will chose for egress? Beyond the meeting, there was a pub across the street. It was around closing time there, too.

    The Double Event happened earlier in time than the other murders. The chance for the killer to be disturbed inside the gate of Dutfield's Yard was further increased by Berner Street in such close proximity.

    Five murders is a small sample from which to detect patterns but perhaps the killer's pattern was to ask the women to go with him to a spot he had previously chosen. Mrs. Long related the conversation on the street between a man and a woman she believed was Annie Chapman; "Will you," with the reply, "Yes". Kate Eddowes may have stood talking to a man near a passage into Mitre Square. Mary Kelly must have brought the killer home with her.

    So I have a strong feeling about BS Man talking to Liz, then trying to pull her away from the gate, I assume to go across Berner Street. She cried "no" three times but not loudly. I think she knew him, did not want to go with him and he had to kill her so she would not tell tales.* I think she did not think he was a serious threat, perhaps she felt he was annoying and obnoxious but harmless. Had he succeeded in pulling her along with him, where might her body have been found? In the yard of the board school? (* At this point we could interject, "What about the cachous?")

    Wicker Man and I are both extremely interested in the odd or awkward gait of a man (or men) seen near the various crimes. Maybe he was a known, partly crippled man in the area and Liz thought she could out-run him. (I still think the best chance of identifying JtR will be to find an odd man who walked with difficulty.)

    Someone along the way suggested Liz was standing where she was in order to hear the singing still going on in the club. Some reports said Russians were singing. Perhaps it was folk music that reminded Liz of Sweden. At this time we have all the music we want with a few clicks online but back then, there was little opportunity for someone like Liz to hear special music.

    News reports indicate that after Hanbury Street, women were pairing up on the streets at night. Liz was not so drunk or desperate that she had to stand alone in a dark gateway. I like the idea that she was listening to music. Though she was seen with men that evening/morning, no money was found on her person and we have no reports in that time frame of her having drinks or something to eat. Since the killer seems to have been interrupted, he probably did not have the chance to rob her, if he did rob his victims. Was she soliciting or socializing? Perhaps she was interviewing for a replacement for Michael Kidney.

    I believe it was Schwartz who said the man "lurched along as though drunk." A stiff-legged gait could appear so. But if JtR had a stiff leg or two, how well could he crouch beside his victims once he had them on the ground? That is a good point to ponder!

    All that said, I continually ponder whether the Double Event was done by a different hand than the one that killed Polly, Annie and Mary. There were so many differences in the Double Event and there is to me, a hint that the killer was trying to implicate Jews, socialists, immigrants, or to make a political statement of some kind.

    Leave a comment:


  • Steve Blomer
    replied
    Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
    Some think Stride had made an effort to clean herself up that evening as if she was going on a date.
    Not the kind of thing a woman might do if she intends to pick up a quick cleaning job on her night out.
    Likewise, if she is soliciting, why waste time standing around. It doesn't seem to be a well known pickup point for prostitutes.

    The main problem I have with BS-man being the killer is this careless, noisy, assault in full view of witnesses. This never happened in the Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes or Kelly cases. It is just so out of character.

    Anyhow, leaving that aside. We are led to believe BS-man was drunk or "tipsy", yet we only read that in the press statement.
    I don't see where Swanson mentioned this detail in his report about Schwartz.

    Maybe this detail was not true.
    Perhaps, the stagger of this man was more due to a limp, than being drunk?
    Did BS-man have an awkward gait?

    Back in the Chapman case one witness (Thimbleby) saw a man on the morning of the murder running down Hanbury street about 6:00am, with an awkward gait.
    We read:

    He was hurrying from Hanbury-street, below where the murder took place, into Brick-lane. He was walking, almost running, and had a peculiar gait, his knees not bending when he walked......... He was dressed in a dark stiff hat and cutaway coat, reaching to his knees. His face was clean shaven, and he seemed about 30 years old. Thimbleby says he can identify him.

    Later in the Kelly case one particular suspect drew attention to himself by accosting women (unfortunates?) in the street. He was described by several witnesses.

    “Shortly afterwards, it is stated a respectably dressed man accosted Kelly and offered her money. The appearance of this man is far from definitely ascertainable. Some say he wore a high silk hat and brown overcoat; others that he was habited in dark mixture trousers, long, dark overcoat, and low-crowned, brown hat, and that he carried the now famous shiny, black bag in his hand. In stature he is variously described as of medium height and slight, short and thick set, and of awkward gait. Nearly all the accounts agree, however, as to his wearing a black moustache and having a very remarkable and unpleasant glare in his eyes.
    Sunday Times, 11 Nov. 1888.



    Interesting Jon.


    you point out the apparent difference in approach if it were BS Man, and of course the injuries are themselves very different from the other cases.


    My problem has I have said is I see no Need for a second attacker, it is almost as if some do not want, him to be.


    Tom Wescott of course suggests that he may be Morris Eagles, but again I. Am far from convinçed by that suggestion.


    steve

    Leave a comment:


  • Wicker Man
    replied
    Some think Stride had made an effort to clean herself up that evening as if she was going on a date.
    Not the kind of thing a woman might do if she intends to pick up a quick cleaning job on her night out.
    Likewise, if she is soliciting, why waste time standing around. It doesn't seem to be a well known pickup point for prostitutes.

    The main problem I have with BS-man being the killer is this careless, noisy, assault in full view of witnesses. This never happened in the Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes or Kelly cases. It is just so out of character.

    Anyhow, leaving that aside. We are led to believe BS-man was drunk or "tipsy", yet we only read that in the press statement.
    I don't see where Swanson mentioned this detail in his report about Schwartz.

    Maybe this detail was not true.
    Perhaps, the stagger of this man was more due to a limp, than being drunk?
    Did BS-man have an awkward gait?

    Back in the Chapman case one witness (Thimbleby) saw a man on the morning of the murder running down Hanbury street about 6:00am, with an awkward gait.
    We read:

    He was hurrying from Hanbury-street, below where the murder took place, into Brick-lane. He was walking, almost running, and had a peculiar gait, his knees not bending when he walked......... He was dressed in a dark stiff hat and cutaway coat, reaching to his knees. His face was clean shaven, and he seemed about 30 years old. Thimbleby says he can identify him.

    Later in the Kelly case one particular suspect drew attention to himself by accosting women (unfortunates?) in the street. He was described by several witnesses.

    “Shortly afterwards, it is stated a respectably dressed man accosted Kelly and offered her money. The appearance of this man is far from definitely ascertainable. Some say he wore a high silk hat and brown overcoat; others that he was habited in dark mixture trousers, long, dark overcoat, and low-crowned, brown hat, and that he carried the now famous shiny, black bag in his hand. In stature he is variously described as of medium height and slight, short and thick set, and of awkward gait. Nearly all the accounts agree, however, as to his wearing a black moustache and having a very remarkable and unpleasant glare in his eyes.
    Sunday Times, 11 Nov. 1888.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X