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  • Szwarz/Shine/Schwartz ~ ?

    At Casebook there is a discussion about "Nathan Shine" remembering later in life, a scenario very much like Israel Schwartz reported. If I have the link right, it is:

    www.casebook.org/forums/messages/4926/12027.html

    I just found Nathan Szwarz. Shine would be a nice Anglicised name if one was a Szwarz. (Szwarz ought to sound like Schwartz, but the latter is the German spelling and more common in the English speaking world. Szwarz is a Hungarian spelling but there were a ton of them in Poland, many of whom emigrated to the U.S. There were some really terrible things in that part of the world back then and a number of refugees went to Cicicia [Silesia?] before immigrating elsewhere.)

    Now it gets better, maybe. We kind of discussed some of this here before, concerning a Sassiene family. Nathan Shine was in that family also.

    Purportedly a relative of Aaron Kosminski was located and interviewed. Her name was Zena Shine. (I saw an interview with her on You Tube.) Of course if Shine is an adopted name, there need not be familial connexion.

    Anyway, "Israel Schwartz" seemed to be a credible witness, accepted by the police at the time. Yet to me there are problems with his tale. I believe he is telling the truth, at least part of it, but not all of it.

    So now I am to a point to ponder, something that has crossed my mind before I rediscovered the Nathan Shine discussion as noted above. I wonder if Schwartz/Shine or whoever knew the killer? Something about the way Schwartz ran away--because a man was lighting his pipe nearby---that doesn't make sense to me. The Lipski thing also doesn't make sense. Would it make sense if a man was killing a woman and he yelled "Ted Bundy" to onlookers? What's the point? Though the police at the time found importance in the name Lipski I cannot see the basic sense in it.

    Then I think of Lavende's friend Levy saying he was glad his didn't have to go home alone when he saw "characters like that" hanging about. What the heck? He MUST have known the man we believe was with Eddowes.

    Did these Jewish witnesses KNOW a criminal, perhaps murderous Jew in their midst? Did they tell as much as they could without having to formally witness? Is this also a base for the comment that the Jewish witness would not testify against a fellow Jew? Did Schwartz/Shine get a job at the Seaside Home so he could be protected from possible retribution until the authorities had the situation under control?
    Last edited by Anna Morris; November 16, 2016, 03:38 PM. Reason: correction
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

  • #2
    There is a Nathan Shine of the right age as in the discussion, also found by posters in that discussion. He was born in England.

    The story as related by relatives has some problems with location and lighting. It is almost like a mixture with Israel Schwartz' information. There are some minor details that seem to distance it from Schwartz, such as Nathan was 18 at the time and discussed what he saw with his parents. No wife mentioned.

    I think it's still worth considering if Szwarz could have become Shine.
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
      There is a Nathan Shine of the right age as in the discussion, also found by posters in that discussion. He was born in England.

      The story as related by relatives has some problems with location and lighting. It is almost like a mixture with Israel Schwartz' information. There are some minor details that seem to distance it from Schwartz, such as Nathan was 18 at the time and discussed what he saw with his parents. No wife mentioned.

      I think it's still worth considering if Szwarz could have become Shine.
      Hi Anna,

      I believe his (Nathan Shine) mother was married to a man that was a member of one of the Vigilance Committees, IIRC?

      Comment


      • #4
        Van Gelder

        Post #4. Last sentence.

        http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=18039

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
          Hi Anna,

          I believe his (Nathan Shine) mother was married to a man that was a member of one of the Vigilance Committees, IIRC?
          It appears so.

          Still, his story is so similar to Schwartz' story. I accept that this Nathan Shine has not morphed from Nathan Szwarz. He speaks of going on the same streets like Schwartz said, except Nathan is coming from a club. Schwartz is going to his former address.

          I wonder if Nathan Shine could have been pipe man? As the story goes the presumed killer was standing over the woman with a long, thin knife. But surely Liz would have screamed loudly if she was alive at that point. Dutfield's Yard was presumed too dark for Shine to see all this activity therein. Maybe the killer was tightening her neck scarf prior to dragging her into the yard.

          And now it's time for someone to say, "What about the cachous?"
          The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

          Comment


          • #6
            What is bothering me is Israel Schwartz' story never made complete sense to me. I believe he is truthful but I believe something is missing. I cannot put myself in the place of a Nineteenth Century Jew who probably escaped pogroms, but Schwartz' actions seem odd to me.

            If Nathan Shine's story is added to Schwartz' it makes a complete story and Schwartz subsequent actions make complete sense. The only part that doesn't work is that the Shine story indicates he saw the murderer in the act in Dutfield's Yard and it is presumed to have been too dark to see within. I could understand Schwartz running away if a man was standing over a woman with a knife in his hand, and subsequently withholding some information.

            The discussion I first mentioned considered a connexion between Schwartz/Lavende, et al interrupting of bothering the killer, and the GSG, with this last being a comment on Jews interrupting the killer. What if BS Man snarled to Schwartz, "What are YOU looking at, LIPSKI?"

            ALSO, the Nathan Shine story describes the presumed killer as having broad shoulders. Is that a common way to describe another person? It seems like different people might use different terms such as stout, wide, hefty, strong, muscular, etc.
            The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

            Comment


            • #7
              Israel Schwartz

              Its good to see a lady after my own heart Anna, I love to see new ideas...

              May I present my own. How said to put it on Witnesses so I hope I am not cutting into your thread Anna. (If I am will somebody move me please?)

              The 1881 census Samuel Aaronson and his first wife Amelia A and children were living in Goodmans Fields Whitechapel.
              In 1891 at 22 Ellen street a Samuel Aaronson was living with his second wife and 4 children. The last child Alec aged 5 was his second wife Kates' child. The first mention of the 22 Ellen street address was in 1890 when Alex was registered at school.

              Samuel Aaronson and his wife Kate were said to be Austrian but in the 1881 census it stated they were born in Galicia. I found that Samuel came from a place called Schwoskin. I tried to find where this may be.
              My first contact said there was a place in in Tyrol, Austria. Kin or ken is a diminutive
              My second contact answered
              "I'm not sure what it means, but when I put the few sentences online containing that word into Google Translate it usually changed it to "Swirzy" and the context seemed to suggest it was the name of a place or locality. From wikipedia it seems "Świerz z Swirzykiem" is an alternative name for "Świrz". So maybe that could be it. Wikipedia says Polish Ś is pronounced "Sh", so it would sound fairly close to "Schwoskin".
              I was sceptical about "Schwartz" coming from a place-name rather than the German for black, but then again if the place was Świrz that is almost exactly the same as the surname"

              So heres my thoughts. Samuel (or his son Davis maybe) was Israel Schwartz,
              firstly could the name Israel be connected to Samuel? I did find an Isa-rael Schwartz who left money to a son Ralph later on and he was also called Samuel. Or was it that he was an Israelite (not sure if they were called this) and his second name meaning from Schwoskin.

              It would be good to see where they were living in 1888. The son Alexander seems to have been born in 1887 in st George in the East under the name of Aarons, so I can check the address from his birth certificate.

              Has anybody got access to Jewish births that might state an address. Or can add to this... This is just a theory however.... Need address for 1888
              Thanks
              Pat.....
              Last edited by Pat Marshall; May 25, 2017, 11:10 AM. Reason: spelling

              Comment


              • #8
                When it comes to Jewish names, the more in-put the better. Be careful about things like \s\ in Polish. There are a number of different ways to pronounce \s\. Fortunately Polish is written in the Latin script (what we use daily).

                The Austro-Hungarian Empire included all kinds of places that wrote all kinds of alphabets and had many different languages.

                It does seem sometimes in the records that Hungarian can mean Austrian and Austrian can mean Hungarian or some other place.

                If Mr. Schwart/Szwarz came from a land that primarily used a version of the Cyrillic alphabet there are many more difficulties.

                So any suggestion is valid. We need to place him as a recent arrival in the East End. Wife and child. Maybe theatrical background of some kind. I have an idea the translator that was used may have been speaking something other than German or Polish but perhaps it was all done in Yiddish. I think the press also interviewed Schwartz so whatever language used must not have been too unusual.

                The other bothersome bit is that Schwartz' information fits so nicely with that of Nathan Shine. I wish we could untangle that. Were both men present at the same time? Could they be one and the same? (I think we proved they are not.) Did Schwartz see Liz get attacked but Shine saw her being killed?
                The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Anna Thanks for your message. Nathan was born in England of German and Dutch parents. Do you think the translator, name and address and ethnicity and the fact that he was single at that time was made up by the police as a cover? I must admit to me the two storys are almost identical. I looked through other sites and cant find anything more on Nathan. I just cant see how one can prove it Anna.

                  Some time ago I found a Solomon Schwartz who lived in Ship Alley. He was a performer of some kind and his wife sang. Later he moved to Birmingham and died there The trouble is all suspects fit a bit of the story but not all of it. I shall see if I can find his details and post them.

                  Pat....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Pat Marshall View Post
                    Hi Anna Thanks for your message. Nathan was born in England of German and Dutch parents. Do you think the translator, name and address and ethnicity and the fact that he was single at that time was made up by the police as a cover? I must admit to me the two storys are almost identical. I looked through other sites and cant find anything more on Nathan. I just cant see how one can prove it Anna.

                    Some time ago I found a Solomon Schwartz who lived in Ship Alley. He was a performer of some kind and his wife sang. Later he moved to Birmingham and died there The trouble is all suspects fit a bit of the story but not all of it. I shall see if I can find his details and post them.

                    Pat....
                    The Nathan Shine story is on a family website which I believe I have cited her and others have done also. The bigger family name is--from memory--something like Sassienie. (I pulled myself together enough to locate one of my old threads which I refreshed...the name is Sassienie and it's Dutch. Another Dutch name in the saga.) (I apologise for my sloppy research but I feel like hell and still have serious symptoms from the recent "virus" that I have had for over six weeks.)

                    The Schwartz/Shine/Pipe Man scenario is full of cracks IMO. Or maybe we can't put it together on a correct timeline. Or as some have suggested maybe Schwartz didn't see Liz, but some other woman getting attacked. Maybe Liz was hiding behind the gate and was attacked later. As I recall the Shine story, he was leaving the club and saw the murderer with a knife over a woman, roughly where Liz' body was found. Mr. Shine didn't want to get involved for reasons similar to why the GSG was erased. I personally believe the Shine story. I also believe Schwartz, whoever he really was, but I still can't get the feel for why "Lipski", if that was what was said, was so intimidating that he ran several blocks away. We have also wondered if Schwartz and his wife could have been renting from the landlords named Lipski and if this was like calling out, "I know where you live."

                    I don't see the point of a man assaulting or killing a woman on the street and intimidating bystanders with the name of a murderer from last year. Imagine a modern killer hollering "Ted Bundy" or "Peter Tobin"! So what? I understand there is an ethnic minority angle here and I can't think of a modern serial killer fitting that to make a comparison. (There have been some but I can't think of the names.) Still, the whole thing doesn't make sense. (I actually prefer to think the man doing the attacking was speaking to Mrs. Stride and he called her "Lizzie".)
                    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Samuel Aaronsons Address

                      Hi I received the birth certificate of Samuel Aaronsons' son Alexander born 1886.

                      He was born at 45 Boyd street. All I know now is that they moved to 22 Ellen Street between 1886 and 1890. However it doesn't discount them but I just cant prove they could be connected to Israel Schwartz...

                      If anyone has any ideas ?

                      A widow with two grown daughters was living in 45 Boyd Street in 1891 and I cant connect them to an date of moving in.
                      Electoral rolls dont show anything. Will have to put my thinking cap on..

                      Pat....

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It looks like this family were at 45 Boyd St in 1888. I think it's probably the same father in both admissions despite the surname difference:

                        Name Date of Birth
                        Date Admitted
                        Number
                        Last School Parent or Guardian Address Date Left
                        Reason Left Notes

                        Deborah 09-1879
                        05-03-1888
                        13795
                        Simon SHEROTSKY 45 Boyd St 06-1891

                        Jews' Free School London

                        Betsy 06-04-1869
                        16-10-1876


                        Simon KARETSKY 45 Boyd St 02-1888

                        Jews' Free School London

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The Aaronsons also lived at No. 43 and No. 35 Boyd Street

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thank you very much Debra,

                            So if they started school in 2-88 that means February right ? That narrows it down quite a bit.
                            So it is possible the Aaronsons had moved to Ellen Street between October 1886 and February 1888. Also possibly living at 22 Ellen Street after feb 1888
                            I seem to remember thinking no 22 Ellen Street was Israels wifes familys address is that right do you know?
                            I found a John McDuell at 22 Ellen street in the St George in the East 1887 Electoral roll but I am not sure if he would be a lodger or owner?

                            Pat.........

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pat Marshall View Post
                              Thank you very much Debra,

                              So if they started school in 2-88 that means February right ? That narrows it down quite a bit.
                              So it is possible the Aaronsons had moved to Ellen Street between October 1886 and February 1888. Also possibly living at 22 Ellen Street after feb 1888
                              I seem to remember thinking no 22 Ellen Street was Israels wifes familys address is that right do you know?
                              I found a John McDuell at 22 Ellen street in the St George in the East 1887 Electoral roll but I am not sure if he would be a lodger or owner?

                              Pat.........
                              Hi Pat
                              It's impossible to work out whether the addresses given in the Jews Free School Registers were the address at admission or when the child left the school. If we assume it's address on admission then according to those two records I posted, Simon Karetsky was at 45 from 1876 to Feb 1888 at least.

                              The houses could have been in multiple occupation too as there's a Jacob Woolf's at No. 43 in 1885, the same time as Samuel Aaronson is using that address in the JFS records for one of his children in 1885. Jacob Woolf appears on the electoral registers at that address 1881-85.

                              I looked at John McDuell too, he was also in the 88 electorals at 22 Ellen St, he's also down in other years sometimes as McDewar and McDowell .
                              I thought he may be the 'house agent' living in St Botolph's area who married in 1889 to Coliner and so, yes, perhaps a property owner.

                              Comment

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