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  • Chris Phillips
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul View Post
    There was an Israel Schwartz listed in the 1901 census living at 21 Jubilee Street who was born in c.1865 and was a provision dealer born in Russia.


    Another (?) Isreal Schwartz, born c.1864 islisted in the 1891 census as living at 22 Samuel Street. He was a tailor's presser born in Poland. He is listed in th 1911 census as living at 26 Princes Square, off Cable Street, now a tailor, born in Poland. His son, Daniel, was a watchmaker. This is the same person the one who died in 1936.


    Am I right in assuming that the 1901 Schwartz is different from the other one?

    It is a bit confusing, because the Anglicised versions of the names are recorded differently at different times, and some dates in the records are misstated (perhaps to avoid penalties for late registration or not sending children to school at the right age). But I think those census records all relate to the same family.


    I am planning to try to go through this thread properly a bit later and update my notes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul
    replied
    There was an Israel Schwartz listed in the 1901 census living at 21 Jubilee Street who was born in c.1865 and was a provision dealer born in Russia.


    Another (?) Isreal Schwartz, born c.1864 islisted in the 1891 census as living at 22 Samuel Street. He was a tailor's presser born in Poland. He is listed in th 1911 census as living at 26 Princes Square, off Cable Street, now a tailor, born in Poland. His son, Daniel, was a watchmaker. This is the same person the one who died in 1936.


    Am I right in assuming that the 1901 Schwartz is different from the other one?

    Leave a comment:


  • Chris Phillips
    replied
    Originally posted by Ivor Shorts View Post
    Really, sorry, Howard. Unfortunately I have very little info re my grandfather, and of course I never met him, having been born about 10 years after he had died. It's only when you get older and the parents are gone do you then have questions that are too late to be answered. I never even knew the Ripper witness connection until a researcher a few years ago contacted my brother and he then informed me. Sorry to disappoint but as far as I can recollect my parents never mentioned anything about it. Do you think this may indicate that in fact he was not THE Israel Schwartz?

    All I know is that my grandfather def lived in Princess square, and that is def his family in the census, and that they are def my relatives. The question is: is he def the witness to the Stride murder?

    I have just been catching up on this thread, which I saw the start of at the time, but then lost track of.

    I was very interested to see the comments posted by Ivor Shorts here. I was the researcher who he mentions having contacted his brother (in 2008). I spent quite a lot of time tracing descendants of the Israel Schwartz discussed in this thread, and wrote to several of them.

    Unfortunately no one was really able to clarify the question of whether this Israel Schwartz was the 1888 witness. Sadly, a grandson Cyril (b. 1919) had died only a few months before. His son wrote "my great grandfather spoke only Yiddish and was barely able to communicate with my father who spoke almost no Yiddish. The only thing my father ever said to me about Israel Schwartz was that he had a sweet shop in Cable Street E1 and that he also 'repaired' watches. I use inverted commas because my father was convinced that Israel knew next to nothing about how watches work."

    Ivor's brother wrote "I am quite certain my father said that his parents were from Russia - what precise area I do not know ... Hungary was never
    mentioned. ... I also recall my father saying that his parents (and that included himself) lived in Cable Street - when and for how long I do not know."


    My own feeling is that this is the right Israel Schwartz. I think I am right in saying this is the only man of that name known to have been in England by 1890 (though I haven't absorbed all the information in this thread yet), and he was then in Brunswick Street, extremely close to Berner Street. I think it would be an amazing coincidence if he wasn't the same man. Given how little information we have about the witness, perhaps this is the best we can hope for.

    He is described as a Hungarian only by the Star, and I'm inclined to think that is just a mistake. Given that the reporter thought the interpreter was translating Hungarian, which seems unlikely, could it simply be that the interpreter was a Hungarian translating Yiddish, and that the reporter assumed Schwartz's nationality was the same as the interpreter's?

    Leave a comment:


  • Gergely Marosi
    replied
    Cross-referencing some tidbits about Galician and Russian Jewish immigration to Hungary and across Hungary to Western Europe and the USA.

    It's pretty difficult to pin 19th century Eastern European backgrounds down, as the Austro-Hungarian Empire was such a mix of all kinds of ethnicities and religions - and the borders were fluctuating quite a lot. The challenge is even bigger with Jewish communities, who were scattered around many countries, had regular migrations (usually instigated by pogroms) and used neither of the official languages, but Yiddish, as a lingua franca.

    About speaking Hungarian: only if Israel Schwartz was a settled, assimilated person in Hungary, not a migrant coming from Galicia or Russia and soon leaving towards England (I'd find this the most plausible).

    I'd also say that a person speaking Yiddish was more likely to pick up German (which was also an official language in the middle of the 19th century) than Hungarian, given that there is quite a hefty German influence in Yiddish and Hungarian is a very "alien" type of language, which is notoriously difficult to learn. In the 19th century Hungary you could well got along with German only along Yiddish – and by the way it was also more useful if you wanted to move on to the German-speaking parts of the empire.

    I'll try to dig a little bit around with this family information (quite amazing to see a descendant!) in our archives, though the possible spellings of Rabinowitz are a headache. Nevertheless, it's much easier to find a Rabinowitz than a Schwartz, though I very much doubt there is any Hungarian paper trail. Of course if the Schwartz family came across Hungary at all...

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Originally posted by Tracy Ianson View Post
    Hi guys

    While doing some research I came across Israel and Eva's death details. It also lists family members and new/different surname.

    We have Israel Schwartz -
    May 21 1937 - The tombstone in memory of the late Israel Schwartz will be consecrated at Edmonton Cemetery on Sunday May 23rd at 1pm. Conveyance
    leaves 26 Princes Square, Cable Street E1 at 12:15pm.


    We know that in the 1911 census Israel was living at 26 Princes Square so nice link there.

    Next we have Eva -

    Eva Schwartz 1863 - Jun 1944 London Hackney.
    Probate - Eva Schwartz of 20 Fairholt Road Stoke Newington Middlesex Widow, died 29th June 1944 at Hackney Hospital Middlesex. Administration Llandudno 19 February to Lionel Shorts furrier.
    Effects £443 11s 7d

    It's interesting to note here that Lionel was called Shorts and was a furrier when they also had a son called Lionel who worked with fur. All comes together nicely with the last piece of info

    Shorts (Schwartz) - went to sleep on Thursday June 29 1944. Eva, beloved wife of the late Israel Schwartz of Princes Square E.1. Deeply mourned by her sorrowing children Elllie (Mrs Shear), Lionel, Daniel, Judah, Alf and Monte and in law Joe; daughters in law Frances, Fanny and Hettie; grandchildren and g grandchildren. Shiva at 20 Fairholt Road .

    This does lead us to Lionel Shorts info but as that's going into the 1960's i'd rather not post that info. There doesn't seem anything pertinent to Israel that I can see anyway.
    I will say he does leave a will in which he names a Judah Shorts as one of the recipients , so either he has a son named after his brother or his brother Judah also changed his last name.

    His marriage in 1914 shows he's using the name Schwartz still.


    Tracy
    Since we are discussing Israel Schwartz on the other thread......

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Hi, Ivor. Lots of us are more interested in regular people and what they were doing in 1888. I find your information to be extremely interesting.

    I alluded to Nathan Shine before. His family has a story very similar to Israel Schwartz though it is more detailed in that the presumed killer was seen with a knife to a woman's neck and she was on the ground. I still wonder if one man's observations are involved in the information about Elizabeth Stride. Or if Nathan Shine was telling Israel Schwartz' story. Or if two men saw something that night.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robert Linford
    replied
    This is from 1939.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard Brown
    replied
    Sorry to disappoint but as far as I can recollect my parents never mentioned anything about it.

    Not at all, Ivor. I've learned more about my great grandparents from my wife than I would have on my own or even from relatives...so I know it goes, amigo.

    Do you think this may indicate that in fact he was not THE Israel Schwartz?

    No idea, Ivor. Some people experience things in their life that they don't share with family members. Not unusual at all.


    All I know is that my grandfather def lived in Princess square, and that is def his family in the census, and that they are def my relatives. The question is: is he def the witness to the Stride murder?


    Maybe one day there'll be an answer, Ivor.

    Thanks for answering the questions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ivor Shorts
    replied
    Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
    Ivor:

    Thanks for being here, once again.

    Permit me to ask :

    In addition to mamaloshen, did your grandfather speak Hungarian ? If not Hungarian, perhaps another language such as Polish ?

    Do you recall any stories that your father told about the East End, the murders, or recollections of his father from the time period ?

    Naturally, everyone and his brother is interested in knowing whether you have seen and/or have any of your grandpop's personal papers...or a photo of him.

    Really, sorry, Howard. Unfortunately I have very little info re my grandfather, and of course I never met him, having been born about 10 years after he had died. It's only when you get older and the parents are gone do you then have questions that are too late to be answered. I never even knew the Ripper witness connection until a researcher a few years ago contacted my brother and he then informed me. Sorry to disappoint but as far as I can recollect my parents never mentioned anything about it. Do you think this may indicate that in fact he was not THE Israel Schwartz?


    All I know is that my grandfather def lived in Princess square, and that is def his family in the census, and that they are def my relatives. The question is: is he def the witness to the Stride murder?

    Leave a comment:


  • Ivor Shorts
    replied
    Originally posted by Tracy Ianson View Post
    Hi guys

    While doing some research I came across Israel and Eva's death details. It also lists family members and new/different surname.

    We have Israel Schwartz -
    May 21 1937 - The tombstone in memory of the late Israel Schwartz will be consecrated at Edmonton Cemetery on Sunday May 23rd at 1pm. Conveyance
    leaves 26 Princes Square, Cable Street E1 at 12:15pm.


    We know that in the 1911 census Israel was living at 26 Princes Square so nice link there.

    Next we have Eva -

    Eva Schwartz 1863 - Jun 1944 London Hackney.
    Probate - Eva Schwartz of 20 Fairholt Road Stoke Newington Middlesex Widow, died 29th June 1944 at Hackney Hospital Middlesex. Administration Llandudno 19 February to Lionel Shorts furrier.
    Effects £443 11s 7d

    It's interesting to note here that Lionel was called Shorts and was a furrier when they also had a son called Lionel who worked with fur. All comes together nicely with the last piece of info

    Shorts (Schwartz) - went to sleep on Thursday June 29 1944. Eva, beloved wife of the late Israel Schwartz of Princes Square E.1. Deeply mourned by her sorrowing children Elllie (Mrs Shear), Lionel, Daniel, Judah, Alf and Monte and in law Joe; daughters in law Frances, Fanny and Hettie; grandchildren and g grandchildren. Shiva at 20 Fairholt Road .

    This does lead us to Lionel Shorts info but as that's going into the 1960's i'd rather not post that info. There doesn't seem anything pertinent to Israel that I can see anyway.
    I will say he does leave a will in which he names a Judah Shorts as one of the recipients , so either he has a son named after his brother or his brother Judah also changed his last name.

    His marriage in 1914 shows he's using the name Schwartz still.


    Tracy





    Hi Tracey,




    You have written extensively and very helpfully on Israel Schwartz, so much appreciated.


    I thought you would like to know that my father, Monty Shorts, had been using this name from 1943 when by deed poll he changed it from the name he was born with, Mendel Schwat. A previous post of yours included a list of the census details I think from 1911, when Israel Schwartz lived in Princes Square, Cable St. This was definitely the family home of my father, as I can recall the many times he would talk about hat address. (I even recall him animatedly relating to me how during the First World War an airplane, I believe a German one, crashed (into a lane I believe?) in the area, and so narrowly missing him. Can you imagine how he, a 7 year old boy, would have felt at that time? Anyway, all the names of his brothers that are listed in that entry, Lionel (Lou, Daniel, Judah, and Monte (Monty) are all correct, except the one that is missing, namely Alf. Instead of Alf, the name "Abie" is given, but I presume that this was a mistake in recoding. And most importantly, all are in the correct chronological order. I had met all of them over the years, but not the oldest sibling, his sister who had passed away.

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Originally posted by Ivor Shorts View Post
    Hi Anna, you might be interested to learn that on my dad's (Mendel Schwat/later Monty Shorts) birth cert his father, named Israel Schwat, was described as a "journeyman watchmaker". Not exactly sure what that was. An apprentice, or employee? Of course that was in 1902, so he may have changed to another trade after that?
    Thanks for the reply, Ivor. Journeyman comes from the root jour for day. Rather than working at one job in one place, journeymen moved from job to job. Maybe he was especially skilled? Or starting out? Maybe either one IMO.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ivor Shorts
    replied
    Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
    FANTASTIC! Schwartz to Shorts. Makes sense but I would never have thought of it. What was Israel's profession? Actual country of origin? Poland or Austria/Hungary?

    Hi Anna, you might be interested to learn that on my dad's (Mendel Schwat/later Monty Shorts) birth cert his father, named Israel Schwat, was described as a "journeyman watchmaker". Not exactly sure what that was. An apprentice, or employee? Of course that was in 1902, so he may have changed to another trade after that?

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard Brown
    replied
    Ivor:

    Thanks for being here, once again.

    Permit me to ask :

    In addition to mamaloshen, did your grandfather speak Hungarian ? If not Hungarian, perhaps another language such as Polish ?

    Do you recall any stories that your father told about the East End, the murders, or recollections of his father from the time period ?

    Naturally, everyone and his brother is interested in knowing whether you have seen and/or have any of your grandpop's personal papers...or a photo of him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ivor Shorts
    replied
    Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
    Hi Ivor and welcome.


    Thanks for the info.


    Here is a link to an item about Israel Schwartz written many years ago by the late Chris Scott. We still haven't conclusively identified this witness.


    http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media...-schwartz.html

    Hi Robert,


    Territories exchanged hands in that part of Europe quite a lot then....and so did one's national identity, esp when trying to work out exactly what nationality one was. The nationality given may have been the last country that ruled there for a temporary period. Galicia is a possibility. The record kept then are probably quite unreliable when it comes to accurately reflecting the truth of many personal details, and especially with immigrants who did not/could notspeak the language involved, and maybe even perhaps feared to give the exact info...if it might mean expulsion or punishment. Not to mention the likelihood of bad or mistaken records. So many variables/factors involved. My father for example was given the name "Schwat" on his Birth cert....when it should have been Schwartz.
    So you might search "Schwat" and see what comes up?

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Hi, Ivor and welcome! Fantastic information you have to share.

    As has been said we are still uncertain about Israel Schwartz the 1888 witness. There is another possible side line to the Israel Schwartz information of the time.

    This other angle has the name Nathan Shine who was related to the Dutch Sasienie family as I remember. I also looked into a Nathan Szwarz (Polish spelling) who was a cabinet maker as I recall.

    Leave a comment:

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