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  • #76
    The name could have been spelled phonetically when Schwartz arrived in England. I found what I believed to be a Hungarian spelling of the name. I can't remember the exact spelling so think I will avoid a guess. Anyway, subsequent research showed a bunch of those people in Poland.

    Remember too that Jews had difficulties with surnames. Their system used patronymics but when governments demanded they obtain surnames, some countries limited what they were allowed to adopt.

    Czarny = black in Polish if anyone is wondering.
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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    • #77
      Daniel Schwartz emigrated to America in 1924 on board the "Mauretania."

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      • #78
        22 Ellen Street

        John McDuell (and variant spellings) has been mentioned on the boards before because he appears on the electoral registers at 22 Ellen Street (The address Israel Schwartz gave in Sept 1888) in 1887/88 and some of us has wondered in the past if John McDuell was the actual owner of the property and renting it out to tennants in 1888 but didn't actually live there.
        This record was in the Catholic Baptisms at St Anne's in 1888, it's the baptism of a daughter of John McDuell who was baptised on June 6th 1888 and the address of residence is given as 22 Ellen Street.

        Attached Files

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        • #79
          Thanks for sharing, Debs.....xxxx
          To Join JTR Forums :
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          • #80
            Originally posted by John Bennett View Post
            Nice work. This kind of thing has a habit of rekindling my interest, especially when I live 20 mins from Edmonton Jewish Cemetery. They have a name-searchable website that will give you the actual location of any given grave on a map of the cemetery. So I popped down there this afternoon. Hope this images are OK; as you can see many of the names mentioned in the posts above are present.



            John,


            Many thanks for posting the photo of the gravestones. It's the first time I've ever seen the gravestones of my two grandparents, Israel and Eva Schwartz (nee Rabinowitz) who died before I was born. My father was their youngest son, Montague/Monty (born Mendel) Shorts. Very interested to see my name "Ivor" on the gravestone. I believe Ivor (and Ian) was one of the anglicised names for Israel (my Hebrew name).


            Not sure whether my grandfather, Israel Schwartz, had ever anglicised his last name to Shorts. Maybe he did in his later years with the rise of Mosley's fascists. Or maybe not at all.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
              Yep, birth 1863, Poland, spouse Eva (1911 census).
              Her last name was Rabinowitz. She was my grandmother.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Tracy Ianson View Post
                Hi guys

                While doing some research I came across Israel and Eva's death details. It also lists family members and new/different surname.

                We have Israel Schwartz -
                May 21 1937 - The tombstone in memory of the late Israel Schwartz will be consecrated at Edmonton Cemetery on Sunday May 23rd at 1pm. Conveyance
                leaves 26 Princes Square, Cable Street E1 at 12:15pm.


                We know that in the 1911 census Israel was living at 26 Princes Square so nice link there.

                Next we have Eva -

                Eva Schwartz 1863 - Jun 1944 London Hackney.
                Probate - Eva Schwartz of 20 Fairholt Road Stoke Newington Middlesex Widow, died 29th June 1944 at Hackney Hospital Middlesex. Administration Llandudno 19 February to Lionel Shorts furrier.
                Effects 443 11s 7d

                It's interesting to note here that Lionel was called Shorts and was a furrier when they also had a son called Lionel who worked with fur. All comes together nicely with the last piece of info

                Shorts (Schwartz) - went to sleep on Thursday June 29 1944. Eva, beloved wife of the late Israel Schwartz of Princes Square E.1. Deeply mourned by her sorrowing children Elllie (Mrs Shear), Lionel, Daniel, Judah, Alf and Monte and in law Joe; daughters in law Frances, Fanny and Hettie; grandchildren and g grandchildren. Shiva at 20 Fairholt Road .

                This does lead us to Lionel Shorts info but as that's going into the 1960's i'd rather not post that info. There doesn't seem anything pertinent to Israel that I can see anyway.
                I will say he does leave a will in which he names a Judah Shorts as one of the recipients , so either he has a son named after his brother or his brother Judah also changed his last name.

                His marriage in 1914 shows he's using the name Schwartz still.


                Tracy
                My father's name was actually spelt with a Y. Monty Shorts. He was the youngest of Israel Schwartz's children, and also became a furrier. Uncle Lionel was known to us as (Uncle) Lou when we would see him (as well as uncles Judah and Alf, and their wives etc) in London at Xmas in the 1950's. Sweet memories.

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                • #83
                  Hi Ivor and welcome.


                  Thanks for the info.


                  Here is a link to an item about Israel Schwartz written many years ago by the late Chris Scott. We still haven't conclusively identified this witness.


                  http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media...-schwartz.html

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                  • #84
                    Hi, Ivor and welcome! Fantastic information you have to share.

                    As has been said we are still uncertain about Israel Schwartz the 1888 witness. There is another possible side line to the Israel Schwartz information of the time.

                    This other angle has the name Nathan Shine who was related to the Dutch Sasienie family as I remember. I also looked into a Nathan Szwarz (Polish spelling) who was a cabinet maker as I recall.
                    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                      Hi Ivor and welcome.


                      Thanks for the info.


                      Here is a link to an item about Israel Schwartz written many years ago by the late Chris Scott. We still haven't conclusively identified this witness.


                      http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media...-schwartz.html

                      Hi Robert,


                      Territories exchanged hands in that part of Europe quite a lot then....and so did one's national identity, esp when trying to work out exactly what nationality one was. The nationality given may have been the last country that ruled there for a temporary period. Galicia is a possibility. The record kept then are probably quite unreliable when it comes to accurately reflecting the truth of many personal details, and especially with immigrants who did not/could notspeak the language involved, and maybe even perhaps feared to give the exact info...if it might mean expulsion or punishment. Not to mention the likelihood of bad or mistaken records. So many variables/factors involved. My father for example was given the name "Schwat" on his Birth cert....when it should have been Schwartz.
                      So you might search "Schwat" and see what comes up?

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                      • #86
                        Ivor:

                        Thanks for being here, once again.

                        Permit me to ask :

                        In addition to mamaloshen, did your grandfather speak Hungarian ? If not Hungarian, perhaps another language such as Polish ?

                        Do you recall any stories that your father told about the East End, the murders, or recollections of his father from the time period ?

                        Naturally, everyone and his brother is interested in knowing whether you have seen and/or have any of your grandpop's personal papers...or a photo of him.
                        To Join JTR Forums :
                        Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
                          FANTASTIC! Schwartz to Shorts. Makes sense but I would never have thought of it. What was Israel's profession? Actual country of origin? Poland or Austria/Hungary?

                          Hi Anna, you might be interested to learn that on my dad's (Mendel Schwat/later Monty Shorts) birth cert his father, named Israel Schwat, was described as a "journeyman watchmaker". Not exactly sure what that was. An apprentice, or employee? Of course that was in 1902, so he may have changed to another trade after that?

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Ivor Shorts View Post
                            Hi Anna, you might be interested to learn that on my dad's (Mendel Schwat/later Monty Shorts) birth cert his father, named Israel Schwat, was described as a "journeyman watchmaker". Not exactly sure what that was. An apprentice, or employee? Of course that was in 1902, so he may have changed to another trade after that?
                            Thanks for the reply, Ivor. Journeyman comes from the root jour for day. Rather than working at one job in one place, journeymen moved from job to job. Maybe he was especially skilled? Or starting out? Maybe either one IMO.
                            The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Tracy Ianson View Post
                              Hi guys

                              While doing some research I came across Israel and Eva's death details. It also lists family members and new/different surname.

                              We have Israel Schwartz -
                              May 21 1937 - The tombstone in memory of the late Israel Schwartz will be consecrated at Edmonton Cemetery on Sunday May 23rd at 1pm. Conveyance
                              leaves 26 Princes Square, Cable Street E1 at 12:15pm.


                              We know that in the 1911 census Israel was living at 26 Princes Square so nice link there.

                              Next we have Eva -

                              Eva Schwartz 1863 - Jun 1944 London Hackney.
                              Probate - Eva Schwartz of 20 Fairholt Road Stoke Newington Middlesex Widow, died 29th June 1944 at Hackney Hospital Middlesex. Administration Llandudno 19 February to Lionel Shorts furrier.
                              Effects 443 11s 7d

                              It's interesting to note here that Lionel was called Shorts and was a furrier when they also had a son called Lionel who worked with fur. All comes together nicely with the last piece of info

                              Shorts (Schwartz) - went to sleep on Thursday June 29 1944. Eva, beloved wife of the late Israel Schwartz of Princes Square E.1. Deeply mourned by her sorrowing children Elllie (Mrs Shear), Lionel, Daniel, Judah, Alf and Monte and in law Joe; daughters in law Frances, Fanny and Hettie; grandchildren and g grandchildren. Shiva at 20 Fairholt Road .

                              This does lead us to Lionel Shorts info but as that's going into the 1960's i'd rather not post that info. There doesn't seem anything pertinent to Israel that I can see anyway.
                              I will say he does leave a will in which he names a Judah Shorts as one of the recipients , so either he has a son named after his brother or his brother Judah also changed his last name.

                              His marriage in 1914 shows he's using the name Schwartz still.


                              Tracy





                              Hi Tracey,




                              You have written extensively and very helpfully on Israel Schwartz, so much appreciated.


                              I thought you would like to know that my father, Monty Shorts, had been using this name from 1943 when by deed poll he changed it from the name he was born with, Mendel Schwat. A previous post of yours included a list of the census details I think from 1911, when Israel Schwartz lived in Princes Square, Cable St. This was definitely the family home of my father, as I can recall the many times he would talk about hat address. (I even recall him animatedly relating to me how during the First World War an airplane, I believe a German one, crashed (into a lane I believe?) in the area, and so narrowly missing him. Can you imagine how he, a 7 year old boy, would have felt at that time? Anyway, all the names of his brothers that are listed in that entry, Lionel (Lou, Daniel, Judah, and Monte (Monty) are all correct, except the one that is missing, namely Alf. Instead of Alf, the name "Abie" is given, but I presume that this was a mistake in recoding. And most importantly, all are in the correct chronological order. I had met all of them over the years, but not the oldest sibling, his sister who had passed away.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
                                Ivor:

                                Thanks for being here, once again.

                                Permit me to ask :

                                In addition to mamaloshen, did your grandfather speak Hungarian ? If not Hungarian, perhaps another language such as Polish ?

                                Do you recall any stories that your father told about the East End, the murders, or recollections of his father from the time period ?

                                Naturally, everyone and his brother is interested in knowing whether you have seen and/or have any of your grandpop's personal papers...or a photo of him.

                                Really, sorry, Howard. Unfortunately I have very little info re my grandfather, and of course I never met him, having been born about 10 years after he had died. It's only when you get older and the parents are gone do you then have questions that are too late to be answered. I never even knew the Ripper witness connection until a researcher a few years ago contacted my brother and he then informed me. Sorry to disappoint but as far as I can recollect my parents never mentioned anything about it. Do you think this may indicate that in fact he was not THE Israel Schwartz?


                                All I know is that my grandfather def lived in Princess square, and that is def his family in the census, and that they are def my relatives. The question is: is he def the witness to the Stride murder?

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