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  • #91
    Sorry to disappoint but as far as I can recollect my parents never mentioned anything about it.

    Not at all, Ivor. I've learned more about my great grandparents from my wife than I would have on my own or even from relatives...so I know it goes, amigo.

    Do you think this may indicate that in fact he was not THE Israel Schwartz?

    No idea, Ivor. Some people experience things in their life that they don't share with family members. Not unusual at all.


    All I know is that my grandfather def lived in Princess square, and that is def his family in the census, and that they are def my relatives. The question is: is he def the witness to the Stride murder?


    Maybe one day there'll be an answer, Ivor.

    Thanks for answering the questions.
    To Join JTR Forums :
    Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

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    • #92
      This is from 1939.
      Attached Files

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      • #93
        Hi, Ivor. Lots of us are more interested in regular people and what they were doing in 1888. I find your information to be extremely interesting.

        I alluded to Nathan Shine before. His family has a story very similar to Israel Schwartz though it is more detailed in that the presumed killer was seen with a knife to a woman's neck and she was on the ground. I still wonder if one man's observations are involved in the information about Elizabeth Stride. Or if Nathan Shine was telling Israel Schwartz' story. Or if two men saw something that night.
        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Tracy Ianson View Post
          Hi guys

          While doing some research I came across Israel and Eva's death details. It also lists family members and new/different surname.

          We have Israel Schwartz -
          May 21 1937 - The tombstone in memory of the late Israel Schwartz will be consecrated at Edmonton Cemetery on Sunday May 23rd at 1pm. Conveyance
          leaves 26 Princes Square, Cable Street E1 at 12:15pm.


          We know that in the 1911 census Israel was living at 26 Princes Square so nice link there.

          Next we have Eva -

          Eva Schwartz 1863 - Jun 1944 London Hackney.
          Probate - Eva Schwartz of 20 Fairholt Road Stoke Newington Middlesex Widow, died 29th June 1944 at Hackney Hospital Middlesex. Administration Llandudno 19 February to Lionel Shorts furrier.
          Effects 443 11s 7d

          It's interesting to note here that Lionel was called Shorts and was a furrier when they also had a son called Lionel who worked with fur. All comes together nicely with the last piece of info

          Shorts (Schwartz) - went to sleep on Thursday June 29 1944. Eva, beloved wife of the late Israel Schwartz of Princes Square E.1. Deeply mourned by her sorrowing children Elllie (Mrs Shear), Lionel, Daniel, Judah, Alf and Monte and in law Joe; daughters in law Frances, Fanny and Hettie; grandchildren and g grandchildren. Shiva at 20 Fairholt Road .

          This does lead us to Lionel Shorts info but as that's going into the 1960's i'd rather not post that info. There doesn't seem anything pertinent to Israel that I can see anyway.
          I will say he does leave a will in which he names a Judah Shorts as one of the recipients , so either he has a son named after his brother or his brother Judah also changed his last name.

          His marriage in 1914 shows he's using the name Schwartz still.


          Tracy
          Since we are discussing Israel Schwartz on the other thread......
          The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

          Comment


          • #95
            Cross-referencing some tidbits about Galician and Russian Jewish immigration to Hungary and across Hungary to Western Europe and the USA.

            It's pretty difficult to pin 19th century Eastern European backgrounds down, as the Austro-Hungarian Empire was such a mix of all kinds of ethnicities and religions - and the borders were fluctuating quite a lot. The challenge is even bigger with Jewish communities, who were scattered around many countries, had regular migrations (usually instigated by pogroms) and used neither of the official languages, but Yiddish, as a lingua franca.

            About speaking Hungarian: only if Israel Schwartz was a settled, assimilated person in Hungary, not a migrant coming from Galicia or Russia and soon leaving towards England (I'd find this the most plausible).

            I'd also say that a person speaking Yiddish was more likely to pick up German (which was also an official language in the middle of the 19th century) than Hungarian, given that there is quite a hefty German influence in Yiddish and Hungarian is a very "alien" type of language, which is notoriously difficult to learn. In the 19th century Hungary you could well got along with German only along Yiddish and by the way it was also more useful if you wanted to move on to the German-speaking parts of the empire.

            I'll try to dig a little bit around with this family information (quite amazing to see a descendant!) in our archives, though the possible spellings of Rabinowitz are a headache. Nevertheless, it's much easier to find a Rabinowitz than a Schwartz, though I very much doubt there is any Hungarian paper trail. Of course if the Schwartz family came across Hungary at all...

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Ivor Shorts View Post
              Really, sorry, Howard. Unfortunately I have very little info re my grandfather, and of course I never met him, having been born about 10 years after he had died. It's only when you get older and the parents are gone do you then have questions that are too late to be answered. I never even knew the Ripper witness connection until a researcher a few years ago contacted my brother and he then informed me. Sorry to disappoint but as far as I can recollect my parents never mentioned anything about it. Do you think this may indicate that in fact he was not THE Israel Schwartz?

              All I know is that my grandfather def lived in Princess square, and that is def his family in the census, and that they are def my relatives. The question is: is he def the witness to the Stride murder?

              I have just been catching up on this thread, which I saw the start of at the time, but then lost track of.

              I was very interested to see the comments posted by Ivor Shorts here. I was the researcher who he mentions having contacted his brother (in 2008). I spent quite a lot of time tracing descendants of the Israel Schwartz discussed in this thread, and wrote to several of them.

              Unfortunately no one was really able to clarify the question of whether this Israel Schwartz was the 1888 witness. Sadly, a grandson Cyril (b. 1919) had died only a few months before. His son wrote "my great grandfather spoke only Yiddish and was barely able to communicate with my father who spoke almost no Yiddish. The only thing my father ever said to me about Israel Schwartz was that he had a sweet shop in Cable Street E1 and that he also 'repaired' watches. I use inverted commas because my father was convinced that Israel knew next to nothing about how watches work."

              Ivor's brother wrote "I am quite certain my father said that his parents were from Russia - what precise area I do not know ... Hungary was never
              mentioned. ... I also recall my father saying that his parents (and that included himself) lived in Cable Street - when and for how long I do not know."


              My own feeling is that this is the right Israel Schwartz. I think I am right in saying this is the only man of that name known to have been in England by 1890 (though I haven't absorbed all the information in this thread yet), and he was then in Brunswick Street, extremely close to Berner Street. I think it would be an amazing coincidence if he wasn't the same man. Given how little information we have about the witness, perhaps this is the best we can hope for.

              He is described as a Hungarian only by the Star, and I'm inclined to think that is just a mistake. Given that the reporter thought the interpreter was translating Hungarian, which seems unlikely, could it simply be that the interpreter was a Hungarian translating Yiddish, and that the reporter assumed Schwartz's nationality was the same as the interpreter's?

              Comment


              • #97
                There was an Israel Schwartz listed in the 1901 census living at 21 Jubilee Street who was born in c.1865 and was a provision dealer born in Russia.


                Another (?) Isreal Schwartz, born c.1864 islisted in the 1891 census as living at 22 Samuel Street. He was a tailor's presser born in Poland. He is listed in th 1911 census as living at 26 Princes Square, off Cable Street, now a tailor, born in Poland. His son, Daniel, was a watchmaker. This is the same person the one who died in 1936.


                Am I right in assuming that the 1901 Schwartz is different from the other one?

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Paul View Post
                  There was an Israel Schwartz listed in the 1901 census living at 21 Jubilee Street who was born in c.1865 and was a provision dealer born in Russia.


                  Another (?) Isreal Schwartz, born c.1864 islisted in the 1891 census as living at 22 Samuel Street. He was a tailor's presser born in Poland. He is listed in th 1911 census as living at 26 Princes Square, off Cable Street, now a tailor, born in Poland. His son, Daniel, was a watchmaker. This is the same person the one who died in 1936.


                  Am I right in assuming that the 1901 Schwartz is different from the other one?

                  It is a bit confusing, because the Anglicised versions of the names are recorded differently at different times, and some dates in the records are misstated (perhaps to avoid penalties for late registration or not sending children to school at the right age). But I think those census records all relate to the same family.


                  I am planning to try to go through this thread properly a bit later and update my notes.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Here are the children as they appeared in 1901, with notes on other appearances in the records:


                    Esther, 16, b. Russia.
                    Admitted to infants' section, Berner St School, 8 Dec 1890. In 1891 Dinah E., 6, b. Poland. In 1911 Etta, 25, b. Poland. Also known as Rose.
                    Louis, 12, b. London St Georges.
                    Born 10 April 1891, 19 Brunswick Street. In 1891 Louis 1 month, b. London, St Georges E. In 1911 (as Lionel), 21, b. St George's. Later known as Lionel.
                    Daniel, 6, b. London St Georges.
                    Born 26 August 1895, 13 Queen Street. In 1911, 17, b. St George's.
                    Edward, 3, b. London St Georges.
                    Born (as Judah) 8 April 1898, 143 Back Church Lane. In 1911 (as Judah), 13, b. St George's. Later known as Judah.
                    Abraham, 1, b. London St Georges E.
                    Born 29 May [sic] 1901, 1 John Street. In 1911 (as Abie), 11, b. St George's. Later known as Alf or Alfred.


                    Ivor Shorts posted that his father Montague/Monty had been born Mendel. That clears up a small mystery, as I hadn't been able to find his birth registration. But here it is in September quarter 1902, in Whitechapel, according to the online GRO index:
                    SCHWAT, MENDEL [mother's maiden name] RABINOWITZ
                    Volume 01C Page 292

                    Comment


                    • The furrier connection is interesting.

                      For what it is worth...

                      There was an Israel Schwartz, Hungarian (ie., Austria-Hungary) who emigrated to the U.S.A. in January 1895. Born around 1858.

                      Strange to say, he was also a furrier. There is an Israel Schwartz in the 1910 & 20 U.S. Census that could be him, but I have my doubts, as the occupations don't match.

                      I can find no record of his landing in the U.S. in January 1895, so it is impossible to say whether he sailed from the UK. The only immigrant named Israel Schwartz that even remotely fits was a few months earlier, but he is a Russian barber.

                      Click image for larger version

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                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post
                        The furrier connection is interesting.

                        For what it is worth...

                        There was an Israel Schwartz, Hungarian (ie., Austria-Hungary) who emigrated to the U.S.A. in January 1895. Born around 1858.

                        Strange to say, he was also a furrier. There is an Israel Schwartz in the 1910 & 20 U.S. Census that could be him, but I have my doubts, as the occupations don't match.

                        I can find no record of his landing in the U.S. in January 1895, so it is impossible to say whether he sailed from the UK. The only immigrant named Israel Schwartz that even remotely fits was a few months earlier, but he is a Russian barber.

                        Click image for larger version

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                        Interesting! Remember, Schwartz can be spelled a number of different ways. Spelling can be arbitrary and dependent upon the official first recording the information. It is amazing how 'Americanized' some surnames became at the intake. Simple names like Schwartz became something like Shots or Short. I wonder how names evolved or reverted over the time from original arrival to date of naturalization? If a Schwartz was assigned a name like Short, could he/would he work to reclaim the correct spelling?
                        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
                          Interesting! Remember, Schwartz can be spelled a number of different ways. Spelling can be arbitrary and dependent upon the official first recording the information. It is amazing how 'Americanized' some surnames became at the intake. Simple names like Schwartz became something like Shots or Short. I wonder how names evolved or reverted over the time from original arrival to date of naturalization? If a Schwartz was assigned a name like Short, could he/would he work to reclaim the correct spelling?
                          The Israel Schwartz of Princes Square who died in 1936 - who I still think is by far the likeliest candidate - is a case in point.

                          Early variants include Schatz, [?]Schrratz, Schwatz, Swartz, Schwitz and Shwartz. And by the time he died he was - perhaps understandably - known as Shorts.

                          Comment


                          • While there's probably only a dozen people in the world who will remember what the heck I'm talking about, I thought I'd post the following in regards to a dead-end involving the witness Israel Schwartz.

                            Back in 2007, Gavin Bromley published an article in the Ripperologists about the Batty Street affair. Among other things, he mentioned the October 1885 case of Sarah Schwartz, a newly arrived Hungarian immigrant, aprox. age 18, who was brutally raped in the home/restaurant of her employers in Church Street, after she announced her desire to quit. The employers were arrested, charged, and eventually sentenced to prison.

                            Anyway, it was reported that while awaiting the trial of her abusers, Sarah Schwartz moved to No. 22 Backchurch Lane, and Bromley wondered if this could mean there was a connection between Sarah and Israel Schwartz. He theorized she may have moved back home, or to the home of a relative, and this could have been Israel Schwartz. Complicating matters, no further record of Sarah Schwartz could be found to confirm/disprove this hypothesis.

                            I thought it was an intriguing idea, because Israel Schwartz did refer to living in Backchurch Lane and, studying maps, it was evident that No. 22 was beyond, or underneath, the railway arch, which would make sense of Swanson's some odd statement that the Schwartz had not been followed home, "as far as the railway arch."

                            Complicating matters even further, this row of houses in Backchurch Lane seems to have been demolished between 1885 and the time of the 1891 census to make way for a coal shed and stone yard, so it wasn't clear whether the house even still existed in September 1888. The houses certainly didn't exist at the time of the Goad Map of 1890:


                            Click image for larger version  Name:	Back Church Lane.JPG Views:	0 Size:	110.5 KB ID:	578141


                            Anyway, the whole matter now appears to be a false lead. As interesting as Bromley's theory was, it no longer holds water. I've found another account of the Sarah Schwartz rape case from Oct 1885 and it states that she was actually headed to the United States from Hungary, but had been robbed aboard ship, and was only in London temporarily while she earned enough money to sail. She had no relatives in London, which means the No. 22 Backchurch Lane address is not connected to anyone named "Schwartz," nor any other relative.

                            There was a Sarah Schwartz, age 18, who landed in New York in early 1886, and so perhaps this is her, and she eventually made her way to the United States. As I stated above, she apparently didn't stay in London after her horrific ordeal, as no sign of her was found in 1891 or 1901.

                            Click image for larger version  Name:	Sarah Schwartz.JPG Views:	0 Size:	52.6 KB ID:	578142

                            It's a little difficult to read, but the relevant part states "she came from Hungary to London six months ago, to go to America, but was robbed of her money while on board. Being a young foreign girl, without friends or relatives, she first entered the service of a Mr. Culinksi in Cable Street...."

                            Back to the drawing board.

                            R P

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post
                              While there's probably only a dozen people in the world who will remember what the heck I'm talking about, I thought I'd post the following in regards to a dead-end involving the witness Israel Schwartz.

                              Back in 2007, Gavin Bromley published an article in the Ripperologists about the Batty Street affair. Among other things, he mentioned the October 1885 case of Sarah Schwartz, a newly arrived Hungarian immigrant, aprox. age 18, who was brutally raped in the home/restaurant of her employers in Church Street, after she announced her desire to quit. The employers were arrested, charged, and eventually sentenced to prison.

                              Anyway, it was reported that while awaiting the trial of her abusers, Sarah Schwartz moved to No. 22 Backchurch Lane, and Bromley wondered if this could mean there was a connection between Sarah and Israel Schwartz. He theorized she may have moved back home, or to the home of a relative, and this could have been Israel Schwartz. Complicating matters, no further record of Sarah Schwartz could be found to confirm/disprove this hypothesis.

                              I thought it was an intriguing idea, because Israel Schwartz did refer to living in Backchurch Lane and, studying maps, it was evident that No. 22 was beyond, or underneath, the railway arch, which would make sense of Swanson's some odd statement that the Schwartz had not been followed home, "as far as the railway arch."

                              Complicating matters even further, this row of houses in Backchurch Lane seems to have been demolished between 1885 and the time of the 1891 census to make way for a coal shed and stone yard, so it wasn't clear whether the house even still existed in September 1888. The houses certainly didn't exist at the time of the Goad Map of 1890:


                              Click image for larger version Name:	Back Church Lane.JPG Views:	0 Size:	110.5 KB ID:	578141


                              Anyway, the whole matter now appears to be a false lead. As interesting as Bromley's theory was, it no longer holds water. I've found another account of the Sarah Schwartz rape case from Oct 1885 and it states that she was actually headed to the United States from Hungary, but had been robbed aboard ship, and was only in London temporarily while she earned enough money to sail. She had no relatives in London, which means the No. 22 Backchurch Lane address is not connected to anyone named "Schwartz," nor any other relative.

                              There was a Sarah Schwartz, age 18, who landed in New York in early 1886, and so perhaps this is her, and she eventually made her way to the United States. As I stated above, she apparently didn't stay in London after her horrific ordeal, as no sign of her was found in 1891 or 1901.

                              Click image for larger version Name:	Sarah Schwartz.JPG Views:	0 Size:	52.6 KB ID:	578142

                              It's a little difficult to read, but the relevant part states "she came from Hungary to London six months ago, to go to America, but was robbed of her money while on board. Being a young foreign girl, without friends or relatives, she first entered the service of a Mr. Culinksi in Cable Street...."

                              Back to the drawing board.

                              R P
                              RJ,

                              I believe she was treated by Dr Septimus Swyer of Brick Lane.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

                                RJ,

                                I believe she was treated by Dr Septimus Swyer of Brick Lane.

                                Yes, that's right. Another cameo by Dr. Swyer.



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