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  • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post
    While there's probably only a dozen people in the world who will remember what the heck I'm talking about, I thought I'd post the following in regards to a dead-end involving the witness Israel Schwartz.

    Back in 2007, Gavin Bromley published an article in the Ripperologists about the Batty Street affair. Among other things, he mentioned the October 1885 case of Sarah Schwartz, a newly arrived Hungarian immigrant, aprox. age 18, who was brutally raped in the home/restaurant of her employers in Church Street, after she announced her desire to quit. The employers were arrested, charged, and eventually sentenced to prison.

    Anyway, it was reported that while awaiting the trial of her abusers, Sarah Schwartz moved to No. 22 Backchurch Lane, and Bromley wondered if this could mean there was a connection between Sarah and Israel Schwartz. He theorized she may have moved back home, or to the home of a relative, and this could have been Israel Schwartz. Complicating matters, no further record of Sarah Schwartz could be found to confirm/disprove this hypothesis.

    I thought it was an intriguing idea, because Israel Schwartz did refer to living in Backchurch Lane and, studying maps, it was evident that No. 22 was beyond, or underneath, the railway arch, which would make sense of Swanson's some odd statement that the Schwartz had not been followed home, "as far as the railway arch."

    Complicating matters even further, this row of houses in Backchurch Lane seems to have been demolished between 1885 and the time of the 1891 census to make way for a coal shed and stone yard, so it wasn't clear whether the house even still existed in September 1888. The houses certainly didn't exist at the time of the Goad Map of 1890:


    Click image for larger version Name:	Back Church Lane.JPG Views:	0 Size:	110.5 KB ID:	578141


    Anyway, the whole matter now appears to be a false lead. As interesting as Bromley's theory was, it no longer holds water. I've found another account of the Sarah Schwartz rape case from Oct 1885 and it states that she was actually headed to the United States from Hungary, but had been robbed aboard ship, and was only in London temporarily while she earned enough money to sail. She had no relatives in London, which means the No. 22 Backchurch Lane address is not connected to anyone named "Schwartz," nor any other relative.

    There was a Sarah Schwartz, age 18, who landed in New York in early 1886, and so perhaps this is her, and she eventually made her way to the United States. As I stated above, she apparently didn't stay in London after her horrific ordeal, as no sign of her was found in 1891 or 1901.

    Click image for larger version Name:	Sarah Schwartz.JPG Views:	0 Size:	52.6 KB ID:	578142

    It's a little difficult to read, but the relevant part states "she came from Hungary to London six months ago, to go to America, but was robbed of her money while on board. Being a young foreign girl, without friends or relatives, she first entered the service of a Mr. Culinksi in Cable Street...."

    Back to the drawing board.

    R P
    Thanks. It's always nice to see new discoveries about old speculations. It was even suggested that Israel Schwartz may have had a liking for the house number 22, as he lived at 22 Ellen Street and (the candidate Schwartz at) 22 Samuel Street, wasn't it?

    And even now, someone may be pondering a Kozminski-Kaminski-Koslowski-Culinski confusion theory ...

    Comment


    • It’s an interesting case in its own right, even without the Schwartz connection.

      https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/othe...chapel-in-1885

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post
        And even now, someone may be pondering a Kozminski-Kaminski-Koslowski-Culinski confusion theory ...
        Well, --out of mild curiosity, I did look up 'Culinsky'! Possibly a Polish tailor, Abraham Colinsky, living at 165 Wentworth Street in 1891. There was also a Joseph Colinsky, tailor, kicking around Mile End, the right age to have been his brother. Just more bystanders in the ever widening saga.

        It's somewhat strange that if we have the right Israel Schwartz on this thread, the Russian of Brunswick Street, and he's still living in the immediate neighborhood for all those years, that we didn't hear about him being used as a witness in the Sadler/Grainger cases. He's the most likely candidate, I admit, but I always fancied the idea that maybe Schwartz left the area, as witnesses sometimes do, so the police had no choice but to rely on the City's witness, Lawende. One of the many nagging enigmas for which there is no clear answer.


        Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post
        which would make sense of Swanson's some odd statement that the Schwartz had not been followed home, "as far as the railway arch."
        My bad. Swanson didn't use the word 'home'--that's my assumption. Either way, his reference to the railway arch continues to confuse. Swanson evidently assumed the Home Office would understand the reference, so maybe there was an earlier and now lost report that mentioned it (?) Possibly by Inspector Reid? Aggravating.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post
          I thought it was an intriguing idea, because Israel Schwartz did refer to living in Backchurch Lane and, studying maps, it was evident that No. 22 was beyond, or underneath, the railway arch, which would make sense of Swanson's some odd statement that the Schwartz had not been followed home, "as far as the railway arch."
          There was some talk in the recent past that Schwartz may have given his address as 22 Ellen Street, Backchurch Lane and not actually lived at 22 Back Church Lane. It's been a long time since i looked at any of this so my memory is a bit hazy. Checking the newspaper archive just now I came across an 1885 advert mentioning two leasehold tenements, 22 and 32 Ellen Street, Backchurch Lane let to weekly tenants.

          Comment


          • I may be wrong but didn't the brother of Israels wife live in Back Church Lane ?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Pat Marshall View Post
              I may be wrong but didn't the brother of Israels wife live in Back Church Lane ?
              I can't find anything like that in my notes. I have that Judah (aka Edward), the son of the candidate Israel himself, was born in 1898 at 143 Backchurch Lane, which was also given as the mother's address.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                Checking the newspaper archive just now I came across an 1885 advert mentioning two leasehold tenements, 22 and 32 Ellen Street, Backchurch Lane let to weekly tenants.
                Thanks. No. 32 still existed in 1888 (it can be seen on the map in Post #106, the last house on Back Church Lane before the railway arch), but I'm convinced that all the house below that number were demolished in 1886.

                Which makes me wonder why Schwartz went as far as the railway arch, since there were no longer any houses down that way.

                From the 1891 Census sheet: 'space between 32 & 8 Backchurch Lane is occupied by Railway arches and Coal depot.' An article in the Tower Hamlets Independent seems to indicate that the London and Tilbury Railway Company may have completed this demolition by November 1886.

                Click image for larger version  Name:	Back Church Lane 1891.JPG Views:	0 Size:	99.2 KB ID:	578225

                An article at the time of the Pinchin Street torso case described these former buildings as having been "small and dilapidated.'


                Click image for larger version  Name:	London and Tilbury.JPG Views:	0 Size:	26.2 KB ID:	578226

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                • This is probably nothing, but there is a Ralph Schwartz [Shwartz], age 4, living in St. George-in-the-East in 1911. His family is Romanian--just across the border from Hungary. It looks like he may have lived on Christian Street in later years.

                  None of this would matter, but I noticed there was an Israel Schwartz who died in the West End in 1944 who left his money to a Ralph Schwartz, described as a 'variety artist.' Schwartz was described as looking like someone in the theatrical line, but this was nearly 60 years earlier.

                  And Llandudno in Wales seems way out of whack.

                  Click image for larger version

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                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post
                    This is probably nothing, but there is a Ralph Schwartz [Shwartz], age 4, living in St. George-in-the-East in 1911. His family is Romanian--just across the border from Hungary. It looks like he may have lived on Christian Street in later years.

                    None of this would matter, but I noticed there was an Israel Schwartz who died in the West End in 1944 who left his money to a Ralph Schwartz, described as a 'variety artist.' Schwartz was described as looking like someone in the theatrical line, but this was nearly 60 years earlier.

                    And Llandudno in Wales seems way out of whack.

                    Click image for larger version

Name:	June 1944.JPG
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                    It seems that Israel was aged only 30, though, courtesy of www.freebmd.org.uk:
                    Deaths Jun 1944
                    Schwartz Israel 31 Pancras 1b 25

                    Apparently the probate office went to Llandudno for the duration of the Second World War.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

                      It seems that Israel was aged only 30, though, courtesy of www.freebmd.org.uk:
                      Deaths Jun 1944
                      Schwartz Israel 31 Pancras 1b 25

                      Apparently the probate office went to Llandudno for the duration of the Second World War.
                      Ah, thanks! That explains it.

                      Another one bites the dust. It does seem as if the Brunswick Street tailor is the most likely.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post

                        Thanks. No. 32 still existed in 1888 (it can be seen on the map in Post #106, the last house on Back Church Lane before the railway arch), but I'm convinced that all the house below that number were demolished in 1886.

                        Which makes me wonder why Schwartz went as far as the railway arch, since there were no longer any houses down that way.

                        From the 1891 Census sheet: 'space between 32 & 8 Backchurch Lane is occupied by Railway arches and Coal depot.' An article in the Tower Hamlets Independent seems to indicate that the London and Tilbury Railway Company may have completed this demolition by November 1886.

                        Click image for larger version Name:	Back Church Lane 1891.JPG Views:	0 Size:	99.2 KB ID:	578225

                        An article at the time of the Pinchin Street torso case described these former buildings as having been "small and dilapidated.'


                        Click image for larger version Name:	London and Tilbury.JPG Views:	0 Size:	26.2 KB ID:	578226
                        Thanks RJ
                        I'm probably just confusing things unnecessarily here as usual! - I was wondering and wanting to clarify the current opinion on a recent idea that Schwartz was never at 22 Backchurch Lane at all and it was a mistake, based on the fact that the address of 22 Ellen Street was sometimes given as 22 Ellen Street Backchurch Lane? .The clip showing that both 22 and 32 Ellen Street were lodging houses in multiple occupation where the address was given as 22 and 32 Ellen Street, Backchurch Lane.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post

                          Thanks RJ
                          I'm probably just confusing things unnecessarily here as usual! - I was wondering and wanting to clarify the current opinion on a recent idea that Schwartz was never at 22 Backchurch Lane at all and it was a mistake, based on the fact that the address of 22 Ellen Street was sometimes given as 22 Ellen Street Backchurch Lane? .The clip showing that both 22 and 32 Ellen Street were lodging houses in multiple occupation where the address was given as 22 and 32 Ellen Street, Backchurch Lane.
                          I think that's right. The report by Swanson said his new address was 22 Helen Street, Backchurch Lane. The Star report just says Backchurch Lane. I don't think there's any other primary source for his address.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

                            I think that's right. The report by Swanson said his new address was 22 Helen Street, Backchurch Lane. The Star report just says Backchurch Lane. I don't think there's any other primary source for his address.
                            Thanks Chris.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

                              I think that's right. The report by Swanson said his new address was 22 Helen Street, Backchurch Lane. The Star report just says Backchurch Lane. I don't think there's any other primary source for his address.
                              Yes, I agree also. The whole episode is very ambiguous. Back Church Lane could well be a red herring--it's the Ellen Street address--but it is (somewhat) appealing because of the reference to a railway arch, there being no railway arch in the immediate vicinity of 22 Ellen Street.

                              Adding to the confusion, we know that Mrs. Schwartz was moving house, but we don't know if 22 Ellen was the 'old' address or the 'new' address.

                              It could even be that the second address was a considerable distance away, which is why Schwartz turned down Berner Street--to save himself a long walk in case his wife hadn't made the move--which suggests Ellen Street was the 'old' address.

                              Speculation piled upon speculation. I'm on a fool's errand, obviously.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post

                                Yes, I agree also. The whole episode is very ambiguous. Back Church Lane could well be a red herring--it's the Ellen Street address--but it is (somewhat) appealing because of the reference to a railway arch, there being no railway arch in the immediate vicinity of 22 Ellen Street.

                                Adding to the confusion, we know that Mrs. Schwartz was moving house, but we don't know if 22 Ellen was the 'old' address or the 'new' address.

                                It could even be that the second address was a considerable distance away, which is why Schwartz turned down Berner Street--to save himself a long walk in case his wife hadn't made the move--which suggests Ellen Street was the 'old' address.

                                Speculation piled upon speculation. I'm on a fool's errand, obviously.
                                Swanson doesn't say whether Ellen Street was the old or new address, but the Star report does say he was moving from Berner Street to "Backchurch Lane".

                                It is a bit puzzling about the railway arch. There is also a report in the Echo that says a man (assumed to be the murderer) was seen being chased by another man along Fairclough Street. If the man being chased was really Schwartz, that makes it sound as though rather than running south down Berner Street he ran west along Fairclough Street and then south down Backchurch Lane. Though quite why he should have done that I'm not sure.

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