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  • First time caller on JTR forums.

    Hello to those who don't know me. Apologies to those that do.

    I have been espousing some thoughts over on the other place, and was directed to this thread in particular by another poster.

    I pose the same question here as I did there.

    If Schwartz did not have the endorsement of Swanson from the 19th October onwards, who here would regard him to be a reliable witness?

    There are so many questions not only about his statement, by even how he came to be. (Cue: RJ with some kind of irony reference).

    If you remove his statement from the collection of witness statements, there seems to be more conistency and pattern around the sightings in my view.

    We have an article from The Star on 1st October which announces the witness and some details, but no name. 18 days later Swanson endorses his statement and names him. He never featured in the inquest (would imagine this testimony would be worth hearing), no-one can seem to locate him at those addresses and we even question whether he is Hungarian.

    Nobody finds it strange that a Jewish girl from Hungary (by the name of Schwartz) who was living at 22 Back Church Lane three years prior, was assualted by a group of men. It would have been a case the police were familiar with.

    So many are happy to go along with Swanson on this, who ultimately went on to name a Jewish suspect in his marginalia.

    All very odd.

    Comment


    • Swanson aside, there were definitely two couples around at the exact same time and place. Witness James Brown saw the other one around 12:45. The man he saw had the woman up against the wall or else she was leaning against it, and she was saying, "No, not tonight!" It was somewhere near the corner of Berner and Fairclough.

      Who's to say Schwartz didn't simply see that - a different couple with the woman fending off a sexual aggressor - and that he wasn't a reliable witness, in the beginning, like Brown?
      Originally posted by Ivor Shorts View Post
      Territories exchanged hands in that part of Europe quite a lot then....and so did one's national identity, esp when trying to work out exactly what nationality one was. The nationality given may have been the last country that ruled there for a temporary period. Galicia is a possibility.
      I agree with you, Ivor. Galicia is a definite possibility, as is this one that is a new on one me - Lodomeria. Both were Austrian Poland. Or Israel might say Hungarian Poland.

      It looks like a good ID to me at the moment.

      Comment


      • I wonder if Isidor Schwartzbart from the UK 1891 census could be our guy....Isidor was occassionally used as an alternative form of Israel. He's born in Austria. Hungary was part of the Austrian empire, so that fits. Agewise and geographically he fits too, I think...
        Isidor Schwarzbart
        Male
        35
        Head
        1856
        Amalia Schwarzbart
        Davie Schwarzbart
        Ida Schwarzbart
        Austria
        Mile End Old Town
        Stepney St Phillips
        London, Mile End Old Town, London, England
        Mile End Old Town
        Mile End Old Town, Western

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Kattrup View Post
          I wonder if Isidor Schwartzbart from the UK 1891 census could be our guy....Isidor was occassionally used as an alternative form of Israel. He's born in Austria. Hungary was part of the Austrian empire, so that fits. Agewise and geographically he fits too, I think...
          Schwartzbart is a tough nut to crack, isn't he?

          There were some children by that name born in Mile End around the same time, but I'm not seeing any definite trace of him elsewhere.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post

            Schwartzbart is a tough nut to crack, isn't he?

            There were some children by that name born in Mile End around the same time, but I'm not seeing any definite trace of him elsewhere.
            me neither. The son Davis Schwarzbart was born in Mile End in July 1889 (can't find the exact date) but other than that I'm also having trouble tracing him.

            It was just that some people are registered with both names Israel and Isidor, and there are pages online where it's claimed that some Jews around 1900 used Isidor as a westernised version of Israel (though etymologically I believe they're entirely unrelated). Though primarily in the States, I think.

            Comment

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