Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Israel Schwartz - new information

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • First time caller on JTR forums.

    Hello to those who don't know me. Apologies to those that do.

    I have been espousing some thoughts over on the other place, and was directed to this thread in particular by another poster.

    I pose the same question here as I did there.

    If Schwartz did not have the endorsement of Swanson from the 19th October onwards, who here would regard him to be a reliable witness?

    There are so many questions not only about his statement, by even how he came to be. (Cue: RJ with some kind of irony reference).

    If you remove his statement from the collection of witness statements, there seems to be more conistency and pattern around the sightings in my view.

    We have an article from The Star on 1st October which announces the witness and some details, but no name. 18 days later Swanson endorses his statement and names him. He never featured in the inquest (would imagine this testimony would be worth hearing), no-one can seem to locate him at those addresses and we even question whether he is Hungarian.

    Nobody finds it strange that a Jewish girl from Hungary (by the name of Schwartz) who was living at 22 Back Church Lane three years prior, was assualted by a group of men. It would have been a case the police were familiar with.

    So many are happy to go along with Swanson on this, who ultimately went on to name a Jewish suspect in his marginalia.

    All very odd.

    Comment


    • Swanson aside, there were definitely two couples around at the exact same time and place. Witness James Brown saw the other one around 12:45. The man he saw had the woman up against the wall or else she was leaning against it, and she was saying, "No, not tonight!" It was somewhere near the corner of Berner and Fairclough.

      Who's to say Schwartz didn't simply see that - a different couple with the woman fending off a sexual aggressor - and that he wasn't a reliable witness, in the beginning, like Brown?
      Originally posted by Ivor Shorts View Post
      Territories exchanged hands in that part of Europe quite a lot then....and so did one's national identity, esp when trying to work out exactly what nationality one was. The nationality given may have been the last country that ruled there for a temporary period. Galicia is a possibility.
      I agree with you, Ivor. Galicia is a definite possibility, as is this one that is a new on one me - Lodomeria. Both were Austrian Poland. Or Israel might say Hungarian Poland.

      It looks like a good ID to me at the moment.

      Comment


      • I wonder if Isidor Schwartzbart from the UK 1891 census could be our guy....Isidor was occassionally used as an alternative form of Israel. He's born in Austria. Hungary was part of the Austrian empire, so that fits. Agewise and geographically he fits too, I think...
        Isidor Schwarzbart
        Male
        35
        Head
        1856
        Amalia Schwarzbart
        Davie Schwarzbart
        Ida Schwarzbart
        Austria
        Mile End Old Town
        Stepney St Phillips
        London, Mile End Old Town, London, England
        Mile End Old Town
        Mile End Old Town, Western

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Kattrup View Post
          I wonder if Isidor Schwartzbart from the UK 1891 census could be our guy....Isidor was occassionally used as an alternative form of Israel. He's born in Austria. Hungary was part of the Austrian empire, so that fits. Agewise and geographically he fits too, I think...
          Schwartzbart is a tough nut to crack, isn't he?

          There were some children by that name born in Mile End around the same time, but I'm not seeing any definite trace of him elsewhere.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post

            Schwartzbart is a tough nut to crack, isn't he?

            There were some children by that name born in Mile End around the same time, but I'm not seeing any definite trace of him elsewhere.
            me neither. The son Davis Schwarzbart was born in Mile End in July 1889 (can't find the exact date) but other than that I'm also having trouble tracing him.

            It was just that some people are registered with both names Israel and Isidor, and there are pages online where it's claimed that some Jews around 1900 used Isidor as a westernised version of Israel (though etymologically I believe they're entirely unrelated). Though primarily in the States, I think.

            Comment


            • As the 1921 census gives more detailed information about the places of birth of those born outside the UK, I thought it might be interesting to look at the entry for the Israel Schwartz who lived in Princes Square, who is the subject of this thread.

              He was living at 26 Princes Square, aged 58 years and 6 months, born Drobin, Poland, Resident Polish, Watchmaker, working on Own Account at 35 Cable St E1.

              His wife Eva was 55 years and 8 months, born [probably] Ruchous, Poland, also Resident Polish [no occupation].

              With them were their children Abraham (20 years and 1 month, single, Furrier, employed by L. Shorts, 25 Paper St, EC, but Out of Work) and Monte (19 years and 1 month, single, Furrier, employed by W. Bernstein at 12 King Henry's Walk, Dalston N). Both born in St George's London.

              There is also a nephew Lew Levy, aged 30 years and 3 months, single, born Drobin, Poland, Resident Polish, a Tailor's Machinist, employed by A. Cohen, at 43 Plumbers Row, Whitechapel E. There is a deleted comment "Father Dead" for him.

              That all seems consistent with what we know, and it does give us places of birth for Israel. Drobin is in the gubernia of Płock, and there is a place called Raciaz about 5 miles to the north east that seems a likely candidate for "Ruchous".

              Turning to the JRI Poland database at jri-poland.org, there is indeed the birth of an Izrael Szwartz in 1863 at Drobin, which is number 31 for that year on LDS microfilm 729205. Unfortunately no more details in the index, but the film should be available in digital form at any LDS Family History Centre.

              I didn't have any luck finding a marriage for him, or a birth for his wife, though.

              [Edit: Added that the 1863 birth in JRI Poland was at Drobin.]

              Comment


              • Wonder if he ever popped up to 146 Cable Street for a beer.

                Comment


                • I apologise for straying off topic slightly, but my wife's mum went to school in Raciaz and my wife was born in Plock.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post
                    As the 1921 census gives more detailed information about the places of birth of those born outside the UK, I thought it might be interesting to look at the entry for the Israel Schwartz who lived in Princes Square, who is the subject of this thread.

                    He was living at 26 Princes Square, aged 58 years and 6 months, born Drobin, Poland, Resident Polish, Watchmaker, working on Own Account at 35 Cable St E1.

                    His wife Eva was 55 years and 8 months, born [probably] Ruchous, Poland, also Resident Polish [no occupation].

                    With them were their children Abraham (20 years and 1 month, single, Furrier, employed by L. Shorts, 25 Paper St, EC, but Out of Work) and Monte (19 years and 1 month, single, Furrier, employed by W. Bernstein at 12 King Henry's Walk, Dalston N). Both born in St George's London.

                    There is also a nephew Lew Levy, aged 30 years and 3 months, single, born Drobin, Poland, Resident Polish, a Tailor's Machinist, employed by A. Cohen, at 43 Plumbers Row, Whitechapel E. There is a deleted comment "Father Dead" for him.

                    That all seems consistent with what we know, and it does give us places of birth for Israel. Drobin is in the gubernia of Płock, and there is a place called Raciaz about 5 miles to the north east that seems a likely candidate for "Ruchous".

                    Turning to the JRI Poland database at jri-poland.org, there is indeed the birth of an Izrael Szwartz in 1863, which is number 31 for that year on LDS microfilm 729205. Unfortunately no more details in the index, but the film should be available in digital form at any LDS Family History Centre.

                    I didn't have any luck finding a marriage for him, or a birth for his wife, though.
                    Great work, Chris.

                    And to go off topic a little, my maternal grandmother used to char for some Jewish families in Princes/Swedenborg Square in the 1920s.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by John Malcolm View Post
                      I apologise for straying off topic slightly, but my wife's mum went to school in Raciaz and my wife was born in Plock.
                      It's a small world. But that means we should be able to get an expert opinion on whether Ruchous is a plausible phonetic rendering of Raciaz!

                      In my post above, I omitted the rather crucial detail that the birth of Izrael Szwartz on the JRI Poland index is indeed at Drobin. Not just a birth somewhere in Poland at the right time.

                      Also, I realise I had been extremely slow on the uptake in never realising that Schwartz meant "black" in Yiddish as well as German.

                      The identification of Israel's birthplace puts to rest any idea that he might have come from a part of Poland that had at one time been part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. But as in 1901 he was described as a Russian subject, that was never really a possibility.

                      I feel he is by far the likeliest candidate as the witness, and that the reference to Hungary in the newspaper report is probably just a mistake. But so little information is recorded about the witness that I think we're very unlikely ever to get definite confirmation of that.

                      Comment


                      • Here he is on a 1921 directory of Cable Street.

                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                          Here he is on a 1921 directory of Cable Street.
                          According to my notes he is listed in the Post Office Directory as a watchmaker at that address for 1920, 1925, 1928 and 1929, but not in 1919 or 1930, and not as a private resident in 1930 or 1935 (of course only a relatively small number were listed in that category then).

                          Comment


                          • I wonder how he got to work - the quickest route would have been through Shovel Alley.

                            Comment


                            • It is striking just how close the witness's address in October 1888, 22 Ellen Street, was to the two addresses of this Israel Schwartz in December 1890 and March 1891, 16 and 19 Brunswick Street respectively (assuming I've counted the houses correctly):

                              Click image for larger version  Name:	SchwartzAddresses.jpg Views:	0 Size:	215.6 KB ID:	587356

                              Comment


                              • I’m not sure Brunswick Street had odd numbers on one side and evens on the other.

                                There were still a handful of brothels there in 1887:

                                13
                                20
                                21
                                22
                                30

                                According to Booth’s researcher, ‘Formerly a very bad street known as Tiger Bay. The Jews have gradually ousted the old inhabitants and the place is more respectable.’

                                Stride apparently had a friend who lived in ‘Tiger Bay’ (probably Brunswick Street), an ex-prostitute who then cleaned the rooms of prostitutes.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X