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Pearly Poll in 1882

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  • #46
    Hi Tom, Debs, everyone

    Yes, I have known about the "German Moggy" and the Leather Apron reference for a while, and as Paul says, exactly the same reference does appear in some other newspapers from the north of England. I have found no other mention of her connected with Bucks row, either (really, I only study the Bucks row murder)

    I have looked into this a little and I'll post a thread about it in the next day or so, when i've gathered the relevant press clippings.

    It is connected with my theory a little, but only I that I believe that the press didn't make stuff up!! But this is the accusation regarding leather apron, so I'm trying to look at possible alternative origins for the leather apron story.

    The thread on casebook, went along these lines as someone asked if leather apron was a type of boggy-man (like Springheeled jack) and was there any reference's to the name before the murder of Nichols, (I don't think there are)

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    • #47
      Isn't there a Pall Mall Gazette report where its clearly stated Leather Apron was fictious?

      Monty

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Mr. Lucky View Post
        Hi Tom, Debs, everyone

        Yes, I have known about the "German Moggy" and the Leather Apron reference for a while, and as Paul says, exactly the same reference does appear in some other newspapers from the north of England. I have found no other mention of her connected with Bucks row, either (really, I only study the Bucks row murder)

        I have looked into this a little and I'll post a thread about it in the next day or so, when i've gathered the relevant press clippings.

        It is connected with my theory a little, but only I that I believe that the press didn't make stuff up!! But this is the accusation regarding leather apron, so I'm trying to look at possible alternative origins for the leather apron story.

        The thread on casebook, went along these lines as someone asked if leather apron was a type of boggy-man (like Springheeled jack) and was there any reference's to the name before the murder of Nichols, (I don't think there are)
        The police and the press seem to make it quite clear that neither had heard of "Leather Apron" until the Nichols murder, at which time the local prostitutes allegedly spoke of him. It is unclear whether they called him "Leather Apron" or merely spoke about someone who extorted money. The received impression is the latter and that Harry Dam invented the name, having no knowledge that a person nicknamed "Leather Apron" actually existed.

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        • #49
          Neil:
          In looking through the PMG articles for 1888...and beyond, I can't locate one which mentions that Leather Apron was fictitious.
          I'll keeping looking for you, old bean.

          September 8th's edition has some info you may be thinking about :
          http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../18880908.html

          You'll notice the polyandrous women of the area were queried by the Star.
          To Join JTR Forums :
          Contact [email protected]

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          • #50
            Hi Lucky, good to see you on here. I have a question for you...Following the Nichols murder, Pearly Poll went to the police and suggested the killer might be a man living not far from Buck's Row. Following the Tabram murder, a couple of Poll's associates went to the police with a similar story and they decided to take it more seriously and look into it. Have you developed any thoughts on this suspect?

            Yours truly,

            Tom Wescott

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
              Hi Lucky, good to see you on here. I have a question for you...Following the Nichols murder, Pearly Poll went to the police and suggested the killer might be a man living not far from Buck's Row. Following the Tabram murder, a couple of Poll's associates went to the police with a similar story and they decided to take it more seriously and look into it. Have you developed any thoughts on this suspect?

              Yours truly,

              Tom Wescott

              Hi Tom ,

              Thanks for the welcome, No i'm still confused by this suspect living near Buck's Row [Echo 20th], I'd still like to know more about Pearly Poll, as well.
              It seems that my hunch she might be related to the graveyard owning Sheens of Whitechapel was wrong! (there were a few old graveyards near Drury lane as well as theatres)

              Best wishes

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              • #52
                Hi Mr. Lucky. I know a thing or two about Pearly Poll, as I've been tearing through the Smith and Tabram murders these last 6 months just as you have been Nichols. Once I finish my write-up for Smith/Tabram, which should be in the next 2-3 weeks, I'm going to be trodding along Buck's Row and might need to pick your brain further with some questions, if that's alright with you. PM me if you'd like.

                Yours truly,

                Tom Wescott

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                • #53
                  Tom,
                  If I can offer any help, sure, look forward to reading your latest work.

                  Paul, everyone

                  I've started a thread on the 'Leather Apron' section in regards to my ideas sbout the origins of the story.

                  Best Wishes.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    198. MARY CONELLY (39) , Feloniously assaulting Auguste Carlson, with intent to rob him.

                    ...

                    JOHN MATHESON (Policeman H 298). On 22nd December I met the prisoner in Palmer's Place, at the bottom of St. George's Street—she appeared to have been drinking—she was bleeding from the shoulder; she took her shawl off, and I could see it—she said she had been stabbed by some man—I picked up this knife in St. George's Street, about 50 yards from the house she complained of being assaulted in—the woman followed me out of the house, and we all four went to the station together—Carlson recognised his knife at the station the same evening—he said "That is my knife; I am sure of that"—I went to 5, Palmer's place, and was ordered out by a prostitute who presumes to be the landlady—the house is a brothel—the prisoner was apprehended the following morning at the police-court.
                    Cross-examined. The prosecutor was drunk.
                    I found a Connelly family living at 12, Palmer's Folly in 1881:

                    Patrick Connolly 37 Stevedore Ireland Cork
                    Mary Connolly 36 Washerwoman London
                    John Connolly 19 Labourer London
                    Ellen Connolly 15 _ London

                    In the 1871 Census they were at 5 Glass House Street, St Mary Whitechapel

                    Patrick Conolly 38 Stevedore Ireland County Cork
                    Mary Conolly 37 Stevedore's Wife Ireland County Cork
                    John Conolly 9 Scholar Middlesex Whitechapel
                    Lawrence Conolly 6 Months Middlesex Whitechapel
                    Ellen Conolly 5 Scholar Middlesex Whitechapel

                    Connolly, Patrick = Mary Hellessey, Mary Madden = Saint George in the East, March 1863
                    Connell, Patrick = Mary Murhpy, Mary Shea = Saint George in the East, December 1860
                    Connolly, Patrick = Sarah Grieves, Mary Ann Tribe(r) = Marylebone, September 1859
                    Connell, Patrick = Mary Ann Francomb, Eliza Toomey = Saint George in the East, June 1859
                    Connell, Patrick = Julia Sullivan, Mary Sullivan = Whitechapel, September 1856
                    Conolly, Patrick = Margaret Mahoney, Mary Ann Williams = Lambeth, June 1855
                    Connell, Patrick = Mary Carroll, Mary Scanlan = Clerkenwell, September 1853
                    Connolly, Patrick = Matilda Duggins, Mary Ann Miller, Susan Smith = September 1851
                    Connolly, Patrick = Catherine Benn, Mary Ann Kenney = Saint Giles, September 1873
                    Connolly, Patrick = Bridget Barry, Margaret Coleman, Johanna Crawley, Mary Anne Rosa Parker = Saint George Southwark, March 1850

                    Morgan Sheen Senior married Ann Scanlan

                    8, Palmers Place, a brothel, was mentioned in the trial of James Simms for the murder of Lucy Graham (alias Annie Smith, aka Big Annie, aka Bandy Annie) in 1879. http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brows...=t18790303-354

                    6, Palmers Place, housed several unfortunates in 1881.

                    I also found a Mary Conoley in 1911

                    180 Queens Road Plaistow

                    1 Charles Hambling Head 36 Single Dock Labourer South wales Haverfordwest
                    2 John Daly Anderton Border 34 Single Dock Labourer Sculcoats Yorks
                    3 Mary ...an Conoley Lodger 62 Single Char Woman Cowcross Street Citty [or Atty] London
                    4 Sarah Conoley Lodger 25 Singler General Servant Domestic Charles Street [Acton Garden] London
                    5 Rose Cross 2 _ Queens Road [Plaistow West?]

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Which newspaper is this from, and which year?

                      198. MARY CONELLY (39) , Feloniously assaulting Auguste Carlson, with intent to rob him.

                      "JOHN MATHESON (Policeman H 298). On 22nd December I met the prisoner in Palmer's Place, at the bottom of St. George's Street—she appeared to have been drinking—she was bleeding from the shoulder; she took her shawl off, and I could see it—she said she had been stabbed by some man—I picked up this knife in St. George's Street, about 50 yards from the house she complained of being assaulted in—the woman followed me out of the house, and we all four went to the station together—Carlson recognised his knife at the station the same evening—he said "That is my knife; I am sure of that"—I went to 5, Palmer's place, and was ordered out by a prostitute who presumes to be the landlady—the house is a brothel—the prisoner was apprehended the following morning at the police-court.
                      Cross-examined. The prosecutor was drunk."


                      The prosecutor was drunk? :-O
                      Best regards,
                      Maria

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                      • #56
                        I was quoting the OP, which was from an Old Bailey case; http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brows...=t18820109-198.

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                        • #57
                          There's been some discussion of the Palmer's Folly Mary Connelly before. Tom was interested in her at some point.

                          I personally favour the Mary Ann/Mary Connolly (various spellings) who appears in the Whitechapel Infirmary records as born c 1854 and living 19 George St and other places in Spitalfields and Whitechapel and mentioned in the A to Z.

                          No one seems to know the source of the old A to Z entry which has Poll b c 1837.

                          Here's some later listings for the one born 1850s:

                          http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=17649
                          Last edited by Debra Arif; October 31, 2014, 06:44 AM. Reason: dates

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                            I personally favour the Mary Ann/Mary Connolly (various spellings) who appears in the Whitechapel Infirmary records as born c 1862 and living 19 George St...
                            Ditto, Debs. The fact that this particular woman suffered repeated bronchial infections in 1888 (as the Infirmary records show), fits perfectly with reports of Pearly Poll's having had a deep, husky voice. That fact alone counts strongly in her favour, to say nothing of her name, age and addresses - all of which support the idea that this is probably "our" Poll.
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen"
                            (F. Nietzsche)

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                              Ditto, Debs. The fact that this particular woman suffered repeated bronchial infections in 1888 (as the Infirmary records show), fits perfectly with reports of Pearly Poll's having had a deep, husky voice. That fact alone counts strongly in her favour, to say nothing of her name, age and addresses - all of which support the idea that this is probably "our" Poll.
                              Absolutely, Gareth.
                              I'm sure news reports would also have picked up on it if Poll was a brothel owner already known to police?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                                There's been some discussion of the Palmer's Folly Mary Connelly before. Tom was interested in her at some point.

                                I personally favour the Mary Ann/Mary Connolly (various spellings) who appears in the Whitechapel Infirmary records as born c 1862 and living 19 George St and other places in Spitalfields and Whitechapel and mentioned in the A to Z.

                                No one seems to know the source of the old A to Z entry which has Poll b c 1837.

                                Here's some later listings for the one born 1860s:

                                http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=17649
                                Have you traced her through the censuses, though? I didn't know whether there was consensus on where she was supposed to have been born, but the one who was born in Cowcross Street looks a fairly good match on the age, marital status and occupation. I know over on Casebook that there's a listing for her in Bethnal Green Workhouse for 1891, who's again a good match with the details gleaned from the infirmary records.

                                Number 8 was the brothel, whilst the Connellys lived at no. 12. Just proving that there was one nearby.

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