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"I know more about it than you." : Mrs Paumier's Statement

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  • #16
    surely more people would come forward if they had seen this man, as he would have stuck out like a sore thumb...esp in Dorset St of all places!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Currerbell View Post
      surely more people would come forward if they had seen this man, as he would have stuck out like a sore thumb...esp in Dorset St of all places!
      Well, a number of people did come forward and described much the same man. I would hesitate to toss all those statements out.

      I realize that Sam's suspicious that the descriptions all mesh so nicely (great post BTW !) but that can also mean that a toff was indeed walking around somewhere he normally wouldn't have been seen and did attract attention.

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      • #18
        so do you think its possible then that he was upper class in the wrong area????????

        Oooh, that leads on to all kinds of thoughts....

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        • #19
          Could anything be explained by Mrs Paumier being part of a Kennedy family? Which she was.

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          • #20
            Debs:

            Just to clarify, would that be this woman or this Kennedy, rather ?



            East London Advertiser

            June 11, 1898
            ************
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            • #21
              I read through the discussion below and see a silk hat came up. Remember that Mrs. Maxwell claimed to have seen Mary in the morning, speak to a man wearing a "high" hat. Can't remember if she said silk.

              I never could figure out Mrs. Maxwell's odd testimony and never have found a satisfactory suggestion unless it would be that she knew a different woman as Mary Jane. For what it's worth I wonder if Mrs. M. saw a woman she knew a little bit but not well, getting friendly with the man who a bit later spoke to Mrs. Paumier?

              Could such a man have been a news reporter?
              The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
                Debs:

                Just to clarify, would that be this woman or this Kennedy, rather ?


                How, what I am saying is that I have done an extensive genealogy on Mrs Paumier and know she had half siblings named Kennedy. I just wondered if anyone thought it could explain anything with the Paumier, Ronay, Kennedy, Lewis story being so similar if Mrs Paumier was related to Mrs Kennedy, or maybe even Mrs Paumier using the surname Kennedy.

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                • #23
                  Thanks for explaining , Debs
                  xxxxx
                  To Join JTR Forums :
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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                    How, what I am saying is that I have done an extensive genealogy on Mrs Paumier and know she had half siblings named Kennedy. I just wondered if anyone thought it could explain anything with the Paumier, Ronay, Kennedy, Lewis story being so similar if Mrs Paumier was related to Mrs Kennedy, or maybe even Mrs Paumier using the surname Kennedy.
                    My direct answer to your question is yes or no, which I why I did not touch it yesterday. I have thought about some of this before but not the Kennedy/Paumier angle. Several bits of information get tangled at this point and some researchers reject most of it.

                    Mrs. Lewis testified under oath about a man who accosted her and her sister and they ran away.

                    Mrs. Kennedy was never under oath and her story is very similar to Mrs. Lewis' EXCEPT, she was walking with a friend and they went with the man. (Implying to me that she and her friend were casual prostitutes. Mrs. Lewis seems not to have been and we have never been able to link Mrs. Lewis and Mrs. Kennedy as relatives.)

                    Then there is the Mrs. Paumier story, the man who said he knew more than she did. WITH that article is usually an additional comment that a creepy man had been bothering women in the neighborhood and they had "chaffed" him. This last bit seems to tie back to the Kennedy/Lewis stories.

                    (Somewhere awhile back somebody made the suggestion that some of the names like Kealer in Millers Court, given by Mrs. Lewis or Mrs. Kennedy, could possibly be a misrepresentation of Kennedy.)

                    Going back to the basics, one reason I initially said yes or no is because Kennedy was not an uncommon name so it is possible none of these women were connected. Plus I thought I was one of the few who would really defend the existence of Mrs. Kennedy. I thought the main consensus was that Mrs. Lewis' story got regurgitated with a different name attached.

                    I find this whole subject fascinating. I don't know if the creepy man was JtR but it is a good place to start looking IMO. I suppose it is just possible that the killer of Mary could have hung around the neighborhood just to see what would happen but I think that is unlikely. Mrs. Maxwell's description of a man in a high hat with Mary in the morning does sound a lot like Mrs. Paumier's man.

                    It is partly from these sequences that I get the idea JtR had an odd gait or limped. Both Kennedy and Lewis report such. (This is why I tend to think BS Man killed Liz Stride, because he "lurched along as though drunk." When I hunt the Ripper I am looking for a man who had difficulty walking.)

                    (One last bit that interests me is the Lewis/Kennedy stories both say they were accosted while walking on Bethnal Green Road. I asked one of my stupid geographical questions on this a few months ago. I think the answer is that Bethnal Green Road is VERY close to JtR's areas of operation. I had thought B.G. Road was a distance away but it is not? Anyway, my latest thought is that JtR MIGHT have lived on or toward B.G. Road and when the door to door searches were taking place, etc., B.G. Road was out of the area of concentration. And I do not yet know if Mary, having lived with Fleming in Bethnal Green, would have put her in closer proximity with a JtR who could have lived on/near Bethnal Green Road, if a Bethnal Green JtR might have seen her and fantasized about her over a period of time for instance.)
                    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                    • #25
                      To me, the story may have a ring of truth to it. Prior to the Eddowes murder, plain clothes detectives of the City force were ordered to be on alert for suspicious couples walking in the vicinity. Two of these detectives were staking out a certain street behind Bishopsgate Police Station (Windsor Street) on the night of the double event. The City Police must have had a suspect at this point because five minutes after Catherine Eddowes was murdered, these detectives headed directly to Windsor Street in search of their man thinking they would catch him.
                      Of course, they had no such luck. This area would be a spot a man walking down Sandy's Row from Widegate could disappear from sight.

                      Red- Miller's Court
                      Green- Mrs. Paumier's Chestnut stand
                      Blue- Windsor Street
                      (I realize I'm stating the obvious with this color key, but ya never know.)

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                      • #26
                        Thanks for your thought Anna and Jerry.

                        Anna, I haven't seen anyone saying Kennedy was a form of Kaylor so thanks for mentioning that. I'm dubious about that particular claim myself as there were a couple of families of Kelehers in Spitalfields itself, related to the Goodson family in Spitalfields (the family of the man, Ben, Rose Mylett lived with at George St) and records show them using various spellings including Keleher, Kelcher and Keyler. There were also Kelehers in Buck's Row.


                        I'll keep plodding on in the Catholic records.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                          Thanks for your thought Anna and Jerry.

                          Anna, I haven't seen anyone saying Kennedy was a form of Kaylor so thanks for mentioning that. I'm dubious about that particular claim myself as there were a couple of families of Kelehers in Spitalfields itself, related to the Goodson family in Spitalfields (the family of the man, Ben, Rose Mylett lived with at George St) and records show them using various spellings including Keleher, Kelcher and Keyler. There were also Kelehers in Buck's Row.


                          I'll keep plodding on in the Catholic records.
                          Might Keleher be pronounced as (or misheard as) 'Kelly'?
                          Best Wishes, Colin. :cool:

                          To a man with a hammer everything looks like a nail.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Colin Macdonald View Post
                            Might Keleher be pronounced as (or misheard as) 'Kelly'?
                            I don't think that Kelleher can be pronounced "Kelly". It's possible that it could be misheard, but I find that unlikely for three reasons:

                            Kelleher has three, fairly evenly-stressed syllables, and it would not be easy to "lose" the last one

                            Even if one did lose the last syllable, the "kelle" part of the name is pronounced kell-uh, which doesn't sound like kell-ee

                            In fact, the "ee" sound doesn't occur in the name Kelleher at all - it's kell-uh-huh (or kell-uh-her, for those who roll their Rs)
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen"
                            (F. Nietzsche)

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                            • #29
                              There was a report that Kennedy's parents at No.2 Millers Court were called Gallagher, but this may have been a mishearing of Keylor?
                              I don't recall anyone suggesting Gallagher/Keylor = Kennedy though.


                              "Immediately opposite the house in which Mary Jane Kelly was murdered is a tenement occupied by an Irishman, named Gallagher, and his family. On Thursday night Gallagher and his wife retired to rest at a fairly early hour. Their married daughter, a woman named Mrs. Kennedy, came home, however, at a late hour."
                              http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../18881110.html


                              Is this what Anna was thinking about?
                              Regards, Jon S.
                              "
                              The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                              " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                              Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Colin Macdonald View Post
                                Might Keleher be pronounced as (or misheard as) 'Kelly'?
                                I think there are a couple of rogue newspaper reports that mistakenly reported Sarah Lewis as saying she was visiting a 'Mrs Kelly' in Miller's Court.

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