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"I know more about it than you." : Mrs Paumier's Statement

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
    There was a report that Kennedy's parents at No.2 Millers Court were called Gallagher, but this may have been a mishearing of Keylor?
    I don't recall anyone suggesting Gallagher/Keylor = Kennedy though.


    "Immediately opposite the house in which Mary Jane Kelly was murdered is a tenement occupied by an Irishman, named Gallagher, and his family. On Thursday night Gallagher and his wife retired to rest at a fairly early hour. Their married daughter, a woman named Mrs. Kennedy, came home, however, at a late hour."
    http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../18881110.html


    Is this what Anna was thinking about?
    I was not thinking of Gallagher. Like I wrote, someone else on a forum somewhere had suggested Keylar or however it is spelled, could = Kennedy. I don't exactly follow that reasoning but thought it was interesting.

    Mrs. Kennedy was said to be married and she was staying with her parents so I personally would expect the parents' names to be different altogether. Although Mrs. Kennedy's story shows that she and her friend were willing to go with a strange man so that brings up the thought chain: she must have been an unfortunate, was she really married, if not, was Kennedy her maiden name? If that is so, would her parents have that name or a similar sounding name and were some or all of the names misrepresented in the press?
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
      .... Although Mrs. Kennedy's story shows that she and her friend were willing to go with a strange man so that brings up the thought chain: she must have been an unfortunate,....

      Kennedy's claim, that the man refused to stand them both a drink seems to have been overlooked by many. Why would they be trying to entice him to buy them a drink unless they were 'on the game' that night?
      Regards, Jon S.
      "
      The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
      " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
      Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
        Kennedy's claim, that the man refused to stand them both a drink seems to have been overlooked by many. Why would they be trying to entice him to buy them a drink unless they were 'on the game' that night?
        That seemed to be a way to initiate activity with a client. There are a number of comments like that in old cases. It appears that in a number of cases women were "treated" with drinks throughout an evening and then the man asked the woman if she would care to walk with him and she would say "yes."

        I have seen heated discussions where some insist there was no Mrs. Kennedy and her story was a faulty regurgitation of what Mrs. Lewis reported. There are so many similarities, yet great differences. It seems also strange that both women were going to Millers Court around 2:30 AM. TWO DIFFERENT women with similar tales of encountering the man on Bethnal Green Road the previous Wednesday...and one of those women had come only to stay with friends in Millers Court.

        The differences are that Mrs. Lewis and her sister did not engage with the man and they ran away. Mrs. Kennedy and her friend went with him and asked him to treat them. I would assume two women in the middle of the night, who encountered a creepy man during the Ripper scare, who went with him and asked him to buy drinks, MUST have been on the game. They only gave up on their activity when the man wanted only one of them to follow him down a dark passage. CREEEEEPY!

        (But does it all fall apart by Kennedy's assertion that they hollered "Jack the Ripper" and a man grabbed the creepy man, etc.? Why don't we know any more? Calling out JTR! should have collected a lynch mob and a few policemen, vigilance committee members and interested citizens, I would think.)
        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
          The differences are that Mrs. Lewis and her sister did not engage with the man and they ran away. Mrs. Kennedy and her friend went with him and asked him to treat them.
          Lewis does say that they ran away yes, but in Kennedy's version we read that the women became alarmed and escaped - which must amount to the same thing surely.

          I can't remember if it was Sugden or the A-Z (early 90's) where it was first theorized that Lewis & Kennedy were the same woman. Manual research at that time was laborious & time consuming, so an exhaustive search for sources was out of the question.

          We are so fortunate to have such a wide variety of sources at our fingertips today. So we have every justification for questioning the results of early research.

          Neither Sugden nor the A-Z made any mention of the Gallagher/Keylor family at No.2 Millers court, where Mrs Kennedy stayed. Which must demonstrate that Lewis at Great Pearl Street. & Kennedy at Millers Court are very different women.
          Regards, Jon S.
          "
          The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
          " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
          Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
            How, what I am saying is that I have done an extensive genealogy on Mrs Paumier and know she had half siblings named Kennedy. I just wondered if anyone thought it could explain anything with the Paumier, Ronay, Kennedy, Lewis story being so similar if Mrs Paumier was related to Mrs Kennedy, or maybe even Mrs Paumier using the surname Kennedy.

            Hi Debs.
            The Kennedy that causes our concern is claimed to have been the married daughter of a Gallagher/Keylor family. Does such a name exist in the Paumier family tree?
            Regards, Jon S.
            "
            The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
            " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
            Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

            Comment


            • #36
              Wicker Man: I kind of accepted for a while that Mrs. Lewis and Mrs. Kennedy could be the same largely because they were BOTH going to Millers Court around 2:30 AM and they BOTH had similar stories. So I assumed Mrs. Lewis was an unfortunate. Then I read the Ripperologist article that identified Mrs. Lewis and she appears to be a hardworking woman and not an unfortunate.

              More recently I have read the news articles concerning Mrs. Paumier and I wondered if she brought Mrs. Kennedy to the attention of the press. In the Paumier article it was said the creepy man had bothered several women and they had "chaffed him".

              My intense interest in this subject is because both the Kennedy and Lewis stories say the man had an odd gait and I still believe JtR limped or something similar. I think if we ever identify a suspect who had difficulty walking, we would have something of great interest.
              The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
                My intense interest in this subject is because both the Kennedy and Lewis stories say the man had an odd gait and I still believe JtR limped or something similar. I think if we ever identify a suspect who had difficulty walking, we would have something of great interest.
                Hi Anna,

                When called upon at the Nichols Inquest, Thomas Ede, signalman, stated on September 8th at noon he saw a man concealing a knife on Cambridge Heath Road. Of course this was after the Nichols inquest but the Coroner allowed his testimony. The man was described as 5'8", dark moustache and whiskers and wore a pair of clean white overalls. He walked with a stiff leg. Perhaps due to carrying a knife in his trousers pocket?

                Also, the papers ran a story on September 1st about a man seen in Little Turner Street, Commercial Road by the dairyman named Huggins the night before (August 31st) at 11:00 p.m. He changed into a "pair of white overalls, such as engineers wear". His statement to Huggins was, "It's a dreadful murder, isn't it? I think I have a clue". The latter part of that statement he made has a similar ring to "I know more about it than you". This stranger carried a "shiny black bag". He was described as 28 years old with a ruddy complexion, three days growth beard and dark hair.

                It sounds like the same man in both incidences.

                I'm sure entirely coincidental, but in an 1881 Census living at #29, Little Turner Street, is a 19 year old named Elizabeth Kennedy. She was living with a sailors wife named Jeanetta Wilkins. Then later in 1896, William Seaman was found guilty of murdering a couple at #31, Little Turner Street.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                  Hi Anna,

                  When called upon at the Nichols Inquest, Thomas Ede, signalman, stated on September 8th at noon he saw a man concealing a knife on Cambridge Heath Road. Of course this was after the Nichols inquest but the Coroner allowed his testimony. The man was described as 5'8", dark moustache and whiskers and wore a pair of clean white overalls. He walked with a stiff leg. Perhaps due to carrying a knife in his trousers pocket?

                  Also, the papers ran a story on September 1st about a man seen in Little Turner Street, Commercial Road by the dairyman named Huggins the night before (August 31st) at 11:00 p.m. He changed into a "pair of white overalls, such as engineers wear". His statement to Huggins was, "It's a dreadful murder, isn't it? I think I have a clue". The latter part of that statement he made has a similar ring to "I know more about it than you". This stranger carried a "shiny black bag". He was described as 28 years old with a ruddy complexion, three days growth beard and dark hair.

                  It sounds like the same man in both incidences.

                  I'm sure entirely coincidental, but in an 1881 Census living at #29, Little Turner Street, is a 19 year old named Elizabeth Kennedy. She was living with a sailors wife named Jeanetta Wilkins. Then later in 1896, William Seaman was found guilty of murdering a couple at #31, Little Turner Street.
                  Thanks, Jerry! That is a great round up of information. After Annie Chapman's murder was discovered, a witness saw a man somewhere in the vicinity, hurrying away, who walked without bending his knees. The article continued that this was a trait known to Leather Apron.

                  (Patricia Cornwell figured the man in white overalls was Sickert in overalls he used in his studio.)

                  All this does sound reminiscent of Mrs. Paumier's story. I wouldn't think a knife in a pocket would cause him not to bend his knee. The white overalls would be a good disguise in that police would be unlikely to stop a man obviously dressed in white.

                  There was that complex theory about the boats coming and going. If engineers, railroad I presume, wore white overalls, perhaps the train schedules should have been checked. What engineer came from out of town at the proper times?
                  The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
                    Hi Debs.
                    The Kennedy that causes our concern is claimed to have been the married daughter of a Gallagher/Keylor family. Does such a name exist in the Paumier family tree?
                    I'm still working on it, Jon. Working through the Catholic records page by page is very time consuming because name searching doesn't always bring results up due to the large variation in spelling used. One entry alone used three versions of Keylor.
                    I've also been looking at a Lewis and Ronay marriage and their extended families to see what pops up there.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      marriage 1884

                      Maybe this one but I cant find them on the census....Pat....
                      Attached Files

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Hi Anna & Jerry.

                        Are either of you familiar with this report?

                        Lloyds Weekly News, 9 Sept. 1888.
                        John Thimbleby, coppersmith in Hanbury's brewery, went to the Commercial-street-station at one o'clock yesterday to say that at six o'clock that morning a man attracted his particular attention before he heard of the murder. He was hurrying from Hanbury-street, below where the murder took place, into Brick-lane. He was walking, almost running, and had a peculiar gait, his knees not bending when he walked. (This is a peculiarity of "Leather Apron's" gait). He was dressed in a dark stiff hat and cutaway coat, reaching to his knees. His face was clean shaven, and he seemed about 30 years old. Thimbleby says he can identify him.


                        For some time now I have suspected the killer was the man with the awkward gait, but he is also reported to have had 'funny eyes' too.

                        Stride was with the man with 'funny eyes', he was described by John Best:
                        "The man was about 5ft. 5in. in height. He was well dressed in a black morning suit with a morning coat. He had rather weak eyes. I mean he had sore eyes without any eyelashes. I should know the man again amongst a hundred. He had a thick black moustache and no beard. He wore a black billycock hat, rather tall, and had on a collar."

                        Bowyer saw a man with 'peculiar eyes' in the court.

                        Harry Bowyer states that on Wednesday night he saw a man speaking to Kelly who resembled the description given by the fruiterer of the supposed Berner Street murderer. He was, perhaps, 27 or 28 and had a dark moustache and very peculiar eyes. His appearance was rather smart and attention was drawn to him by showing very white cuffs and a rather long white collar, the ends of which came down in front over a black coat. He did not carry a bag.
                        Western Mail, 12 Nov. 1888.


                        There's a report in the Sunday Times which tries to collate the various sightings. This is where we read of an 'unpleasant glare' (funny eyes?) & the 'awkward gait' in the same sentence.

                        Shortly afterwards, it is stated a respectably dressed man accosted Kelly and offered her money. The appearance of this man is far from definitely ascertainable. Some say he wore a high silk hat and brown overcoat; others that he was habited in dark mixture trousers, long, dark overcoat, and low-crowned, brown hat, and that he carried the now famous shiny, black bag in his hand. In stature he is variously described as of medium height and slight, short and thick set, and of awkward gait. Nearly all the accounts agree, however, as to his wearing a black moustache and having a very remarkable and unpleasant glare in his eyes".
                        Sunday Times, 11 Nov. 1888.


                        Are they all talking about the same man?
                        Regards, Jon S.
                        "
                        The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                        " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                        Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                          I'm still working on it, Jon. Working through the Catholic records page by page is very time consuming because name searching doesn't always bring results up due to the large variation in spelling used. One entry alone used three versions of Keylor.
                          I've also been looking at a Lewis and Ronay marriage and their extended families to see what pops up there.

                          Busy lady, I won't keep you then :-)
                          Really interested in this one Debs.
                          I spent no end of hours looking for a Kennedy - Keiler/Keylor marriage, but it may not have been an official one.
                          Thanks for the update...
                          Regards, Jon S.
                          "
                          The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                          " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                          Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
                            Busy lady, I won't keep you then :-)
                            Really interested in this one Debs.
                            I spent no end of hours looking for a Kennedy - Keiler/Keylor marriage, but it may not have been an official one.
                            Thanks for the update...
                            Mrs Keilor or Mrs Kennedy may have been married more than once.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Thanks for that round up, Wicker Man.

                              Someone else, I think Jerry, mentioned to me the man with the odd gait leaving Hanbury Street and I recently read that report of what Thimbleby saw.

                              We could reason that there was an odd man with odd gait and eyes who was seen all over the area, who perhaps was the clumsey character described by Misses Kennedy and Lewis, and that he was just a neighborhood character. But a similar man was seen with victims or near murder sites ad that makes him very interesting.

                              It seems that a man with such characteristics could be found in some other report from the time.
                              The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post

                                It seems that a man with such characteristics could be found in some other report from the time.

                                Hi Anna.
                                Yes, and we might hark back to the attack on Annie Milwood, and the man with the red rash (sunburned face?).
                                Later a similar aged suspect described as having a very white face?
                                (I'm wondering if he used a powder to cover the rash, like was used in the theatre?)
                                This similar aged suspect is also described as having no eyelashes.

                                Although there are many causes for a loss of eyelashes, one of them is syphilis, c/w the facial skin rash.

                                If you recall the earliest Jack the Ripper theories concerned some notion of revenge due to the perpetrator contracting syphilis from a prostitute?
                                Regards, Jon S.
                                "
                                The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                                " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                                Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                                Comment

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