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"I know more about it than you." : Mrs Paumier's Statement

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  • Wicker Man
    replied
    I'm inclined to think disfigurements, both facial & physical, would have been common in the East End.
    Being either born that way, or some accident in life disfigured you, then sooner or later you will be an outcast either in your job or among your social clan. Ending up with all the other down-and-outs in the East end might be expected.
    Plus the fact working conditions for labourers were practically none existant, especially in factories or the docks. If crippled, can't work, can't pay your way, then there's always the East End to go to where you will be among your own kind.

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Thanks Jon and thanks again for the research tip.

    What if Jack was a fellow who was disfigured, perhaps in the face? How would society in general have thought about him? If he was somewhat repulsive might he have been written off as unlikely to have interactions even with street prostitutes? Maybe the women themselves would have said they would not go with him for a variety of reasons?

    What if someone considered him but there was a general opinion about him as harmless, shy, weak, crippled, etc.? He is too weak. He moves too slow. He can't walk fast enough to get away. He isn't interested in women. No woman would go near him.

    Or maybe he was occasionally known in the area but not known to interact with prostitutes. Perhaps his only interactions were sporadic and through murder?

    His odd face, perhaps without eyelashes, could have been due to any number of conditions. If it was a lifelong condition perhaps he was never able to have a meaningful relationship with a woman. A skin medication which I believe was available at the time was zinc oxide which could account for the very pale appearance of Mrs. Kennedy's man.

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  • Wicker Man
    replied
    It's probably as well to mention that there was an accusation of a journalist inventing this assault in Cambridge Heath Road. Both Tom W. & I went over this a few years ago. We were looking for examples of stories invented by the press.
    I just do not recall most of the details as to what extent the story was made up, or whether it was just the assault part.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wicker Man
    replied
    Everthing you said Anna


    If you use the CB Press search window, and enter 'overalls', you will get a few press sources.
    Here's one that provides a large paragraph on the suspect, about halfway down:
    http://www.casebook.org/press_report...dt881112.html?




    I just can't imagine a guy wearing white overalls going unnoticed!!!!

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  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
    Hi Anna.
    Yes, and we might hark back to the attack on Annie Milwood, and the man with the red rash (sunburned face?).
    Later a similar aged suspect described as having a very white face?
    (I'm wondering if he used a powder to cover the rash, like was used in the theatre?)
    This similar aged suspect is also described as having no eyelashes.

    Although there are many causes for a loss of eyelashes, one of them is syphilis, c/w the facial skin rash.

    If you recall the earliest Jack the Ripper theories concerned some notion of revenge due to the perpetrator contracting syphilis from a prostitute?
    I just read something in a contemporary press report today about a peculiar man something like we seek, who was said to have had a career but he spent a great deal of time with East End prostitutes, caught a terrible disease, was unable to work...and vowed destruction to such women.

    That is not really an original sounding story but it was allegedly said by someone at the time the man with the stiff knee and overalls was observed. We really need a whole thread for this peculiar man. I was thinking of rounding up information for a starter but I have a headache and hope I can find the article again.

    The peculiar man was also frequently said to be fairly well dressed. Not extremely well dressed, not dirty from a day's work as a labourer, not ragged. Shabby genteel or whatever. Maybe like a man who had had some success in the world and then lost his position?

    I think the hunt for Jack has gone astray because there has been the desire to find a man with very special traits; a doctor, an American, a foreigner, a lunatic, an artist, etc. I think Jack was a man more in the middle, someone who was overlooked or never suspected. He wasn't poor or rich. A youngish man who had lost his business or occupation makes sense. He had some decent clothes. He came out at night. Maybe because of disability or disfigurement from a disease, he didn't show himself often. Maybe night made him feel comfortable. Maybe that is why no one really put it together, that Jack was a fellow seen here and there.

    I don't think he went home to the West End nor did he cross the sea. I think he lived near Whitechapel but not necessarily IN it. IMO he may have travelled to and fro via Bethnal Green Road.

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  • Wicker Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post

    It seems that a man with such characteristics could be found in some other report from the time.

    Hi Anna.
    Yes, and we might hark back to the attack on Annie Milwood, and the man with the red rash (sunburned face?).
    Later a similar aged suspect described as having a very white face?
    (I'm wondering if he used a powder to cover the rash, like was used in the theatre?)
    This similar aged suspect is also described as having no eyelashes.

    Although there are many causes for a loss of eyelashes, one of them is syphilis, c/w the facial skin rash.

    If you recall the earliest Jack the Ripper theories concerned some notion of revenge due to the perpetrator contracting syphilis from a prostitute?

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Thanks for that round up, Wicker Man.

    Someone else, I think Jerry, mentioned to me the man with the odd gait leaving Hanbury Street and I recently read that report of what Thimbleby saw.

    We could reason that there was an odd man with odd gait and eyes who was seen all over the area, who perhaps was the clumsey character described by Misses Kennedy and Lewis, and that he was just a neighborhood character. But a similar man was seen with victims or near murder sites ad that makes him very interesting.

    It seems that a man with such characteristics could be found in some other report from the time.

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
    Busy lady, I won't keep you then :-)
    Really interested in this one Debs.
    I spent no end of hours looking for a Kennedy - Keiler/Keylor marriage, but it may not have been an official one.
    Thanks for the update...
    Mrs Keilor or Mrs Kennedy may have been married more than once.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wicker Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    I'm still working on it, Jon. Working through the Catholic records page by page is very time consuming because name searching doesn't always bring results up due to the large variation in spelling used. One entry alone used three versions of Keylor.
    I've also been looking at a Lewis and Ronay marriage and their extended families to see what pops up there.

    Busy lady, I won't keep you then :-)
    Really interested in this one Debs.
    I spent no end of hours looking for a Kennedy - Keiler/Keylor marriage, but it may not have been an official one.
    Thanks for the update...

    Leave a comment:


  • Wicker Man
    replied
    Hi Anna & Jerry.

    Are either of you familiar with this report?

    Lloyds Weekly News, 9 Sept. 1888.
    John Thimbleby, coppersmith in Hanbury's brewery, went to the Commercial-street-station at one o'clock yesterday to say that at six o'clock that morning a man attracted his particular attention before he heard of the murder. He was hurrying from Hanbury-street, below where the murder took place, into Brick-lane. He was walking, almost running, and had a peculiar gait, his knees not bending when he walked. (This is a peculiarity of "Leather Apron's" gait). He was dressed in a dark stiff hat and cutaway coat, reaching to his knees. His face was clean shaven, and he seemed about 30 years old. Thimbleby says he can identify him.


    For some time now I have suspected the killer was the man with the awkward gait, but he is also reported to have had 'funny eyes' too.

    Stride was with the man with 'funny eyes', he was described by John Best:
    "The man was about 5ft. 5in. in height. He was well dressed in a black morning suit with a morning coat. He had rather weak eyes. I mean he had sore eyes without any eyelashes. I should know the man again amongst a hundred. He had a thick black moustache and no beard. He wore a black billycock hat, rather tall, and had on a collar."

    Bowyer saw a man with 'peculiar eyes' in the court.

    Harry Bowyer states that on Wednesday night he saw a man speaking to Kelly who resembled the description given by the fruiterer of the supposed Berner Street murderer. He was, perhaps, 27 or 28 and had a dark moustache and very peculiar eyes. His appearance was rather smart and attention was drawn to him by showing very white cuffs and a rather long white collar, the ends of which came down in front over a black coat. He did not carry a bag.
    Western Mail, 12 Nov. 1888.


    There's a report in the Sunday Times which tries to collate the various sightings. This is where we read of an 'unpleasant glare' (funny eyes?) & the 'awkward gait' in the same sentence.

    Shortly afterwards, it is stated a respectably dressed man accosted Kelly and offered her money. The appearance of this man is far from definitely ascertainable. Some say he wore a high silk hat and brown overcoat; others that he was habited in dark mixture trousers, long, dark overcoat, and low-crowned, brown hat, and that he carried the now famous shiny, black bag in his hand. In stature he is variously described as of medium height and slight, short and thick set, and of awkward gait. Nearly all the accounts agree, however, as to his wearing a black moustache and having a very remarkable and unpleasant glare in his eyes".
    Sunday Times, 11 Nov. 1888.


    Are they all talking about the same man?

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  • Pat Marshall
    replied
    marriage 1884

    Maybe this one but I cant find them on the census....Pat....
    Attached Files

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  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
    Hi Debs.
    The Kennedy that causes our concern is claimed to have been the married daughter of a Gallagher/Keylor family. Does such a name exist in the Paumier family tree?
    I'm still working on it, Jon. Working through the Catholic records page by page is very time consuming because name searching doesn't always bring results up due to the large variation in spelling used. One entry alone used three versions of Keylor.
    I've also been looking at a Lewis and Ronay marriage and their extended families to see what pops up there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
    Hi Anna,

    When called upon at the Nichols Inquest, Thomas Ede, signalman, stated on September 8th at noon he saw a man concealing a knife on Cambridge Heath Road. Of course this was after the Nichols inquest but the Coroner allowed his testimony. The man was described as 5'8", dark moustache and whiskers and wore a pair of clean white overalls. He walked with a stiff leg. Perhaps due to carrying a knife in his trousers pocket?

    Also, the papers ran a story on September 1st about a man seen in Little Turner Street, Commercial Road by the dairyman named Huggins the night before (August 31st) at 11:00 p.m. He changed into a "pair of white overalls, such as engineers wear". His statement to Huggins was, "It's a dreadful murder, isn't it? I think I have a clue". The latter part of that statement he made has a similar ring to "I know more about it than you". This stranger carried a "shiny black bag". He was described as 28 years old with a ruddy complexion, three days growth beard and dark hair.

    It sounds like the same man in both incidences.

    I'm sure entirely coincidental, but in an 1881 Census living at #29, Little Turner Street, is a 19 year old named Elizabeth Kennedy. She was living with a sailors wife named Jeanetta Wilkins. Then later in 1896, William Seaman was found guilty of murdering a couple at #31, Little Turner Street.
    Thanks, Jerry! That is a great round up of information. After Annie Chapman's murder was discovered, a witness saw a man somewhere in the vicinity, hurrying away, who walked without bending his knees. The article continued that this was a trait known to Leather Apron.

    (Patricia Cornwell figured the man in white overalls was Sickert in overalls he used in his studio.)

    All this does sound reminiscent of Mrs. Paumier's story. I wouldn't think a knife in a pocket would cause him not to bend his knee. The white overalls would be a good disguise in that police would be unlikely to stop a man obviously dressed in white.

    There was that complex theory about the boats coming and going. If engineers, railroad I presume, wore white overalls, perhaps the train schedules should have been checked. What engineer came from out of town at the proper times?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jerry Dunlop
    replied
    Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
    My intense interest in this subject is because both the Kennedy and Lewis stories say the man had an odd gait and I still believe JtR limped or something similar. I think if we ever identify a suspect who had difficulty walking, we would have something of great interest.
    Hi Anna,

    When called upon at the Nichols Inquest, Thomas Ede, signalman, stated on September 8th at noon he saw a man concealing a knife on Cambridge Heath Road. Of course this was after the Nichols inquest but the Coroner allowed his testimony. The man was described as 5'8", dark moustache and whiskers and wore a pair of clean white overalls. He walked with a stiff leg. Perhaps due to carrying a knife in his trousers pocket?

    Also, the papers ran a story on September 1st about a man seen in Little Turner Street, Commercial Road by the dairyman named Huggins the night before (August 31st) at 11:00 p.m. He changed into a "pair of white overalls, such as engineers wear". His statement to Huggins was, "It's a dreadful murder, isn't it? I think I have a clue". The latter part of that statement he made has a similar ring to "I know more about it than you". This stranger carried a "shiny black bag". He was described as 28 years old with a ruddy complexion, three days growth beard and dark hair.

    It sounds like the same man in both incidences.

    I'm sure entirely coincidental, but in an 1881 Census living at #29, Little Turner Street, is a 19 year old named Elizabeth Kennedy. She was living with a sailors wife named Jeanetta Wilkins. Then later in 1896, William Seaman was found guilty of murdering a couple at #31, Little Turner Street.

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Wicker Man: I kind of accepted for a while that Mrs. Lewis and Mrs. Kennedy could be the same largely because they were BOTH going to Millers Court around 2:30 AM and they BOTH had similar stories. So I assumed Mrs. Lewis was an unfortunate. Then I read the Ripperologist article that identified Mrs. Lewis and she appears to be a hardworking woman and not an unfortunate.

    More recently I have read the news articles concerning Mrs. Paumier and I wondered if she brought Mrs. Kennedy to the attention of the press. In the Paumier article it was said the creepy man had bothered several women and they had "chaffed him".

    My intense interest in this subject is because both the Kennedy and Lewis stories say the man had an odd gait and I still believe JtR limped or something similar. I think if we ever identify a suspect who had difficulty walking, we would have something of great interest.

    Leave a comment:

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