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  • John Malcolm
    replied
    I apologise for straying off topic slightly, but my wife's mum went to school in Raciaz and my wife was born in Plock.

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  • D.J.Adams
    replied
    Wonder if he ever popped up to 146 Cable Street for a beer.

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  • Chris Phillips
    replied
    As the 1921 census gives more detailed information about the places of birth of those born outside the UK, I thought it might be interesting to look at the entry for the Israel Schwartz who lived in Princes Square, who is the subject of this thread.

    He was living at 26 Princes Square, aged 58 years and 6 months, born Drobin, Poland, Resident Polish, Watchmaker, working on Own Account at 35 Cable St E1.

    His wife Eva was 55 years and 8 months, born [probably] Ruchous, Poland, also Resident Polish [no occupation].

    With them were their children Abraham (20 years and 1 month, single, Furrier, employed by L. Shorts, 25 Paper St, EC, but Out of Work) and Monte (19 years and 1 month, single, Furrier, employed by W. Bernstein at 12 King Henry's Walk, Dalston N). Both born in St George's London.

    There is also a nephew Lew Levy, aged 30 years and 3 months, single, born Drobin, Poland, Resident Polish, a Tailor's Machinist, employed by A. Cohen, at 43 Plumbers Row, Whitechapel E. There is a deleted comment "Father Dead" for him.

    That all seems consistent with what we know, and it does give us places of birth for Israel. Drobin is in the gubernia of PÅ‚ock, and there is a place called Raciaz about 5 miles to the north east that seems a likely candidate for "Ruchous".

    Turning to the JRI Poland database at jri-poland.org, there is indeed the birth of an Izrael Szwartz in 1863 at Drobin, which is number 31 for that year on LDS microfilm 729205. Unfortunately no more details in the index, but the film should be available in digital form at any LDS Family History Centre.

    I didn't have any luck finding a marriage for him, or a birth for his wife, though.

    [Edit: Added that the 1863 birth in JRI Poland was at Drobin.]

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  • Kattrup
    replied
    Originally posted by R. J. Palmer

    Schwartzbart is a tough nut to crack, isn't he?

    There were some children by that name born in Mile End around the same time, but I'm not seeing any definite trace of him elsewhere.
    me neither. The son Davis Schwarzbart was born in Mile End in July 1889 (can't find the exact date) but other than that I'm also having trouble tracing him.

    It was just that some people are registered with both names Israel and Isidor, and there are pages online where it's claimed that some Jews around 1900 used Isidor as a westernised version of Israel (though etymologically I believe they're entirely unrelated). Though primarily in the States, I think.

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  • R. J. Palmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Kattrup
    I wonder if Isidor Schwartzbart from the UK 1891 census could be our guy....Isidor was occassionally used as an alternative form of Israel. He's born in Austria. Hungary was part of the Austrian empire, so that fits. Agewise and geographically he fits too, I think...
    Schwartzbart is a tough nut to crack, isn't he?

    There were some children by that name born in Mile End around the same time, but I'm not seeing any definite trace of him elsewhere.

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  • Kattrup
    replied
    I wonder if Isidor Schwartzbart from the UK 1891 census could be our guy....Isidor was occassionally used as an alternative form of Israel. He's born in Austria. Hungary was part of the Austrian empire, so that fits. Agewise and geographically he fits too, I think...
    Isidor Schwarzbart
    Male
    35
    Head
    1856
    Amalia Schwarzbart
    Davie Schwarzbart
    Ida Schwarzbart
    Austria
    Mile End Old Town
    Stepney St Phillips
    London, Mile End Old Town, London, England
    Mile End Old Town
    Mile End Old Town, Western

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  • Markus Aurelius Franzoi
    replied
    Swanson aside, there were definitely two couples around at the exact same time and place. Witness James Brown saw the other one around 12:45. The man he saw had the woman up against the wall or else she was leaning against it, and she was saying, "No, not tonight!" It was somewhere near the corner of Berner and Fairclough.

    Who's to say Schwartz didn't simply see that - a different couple with the woman fending off a sexual aggressor - and that he wasn't a reliable witness, in the beginning, like Brown?
    Originally posted by Ivor Shorts
    Territories exchanged hands in that part of Europe quite a lot then....and so did one's national identity, esp when trying to work out exactly what nationality one was. The nationality given may have been the last country that ruled there for a temporary period. Galicia is a possibility.
    I agree with you, Ivor. Galicia is a definite possibility, as is this one that is a new on one me - Lodomeria. Both were Austrian Poland. Or Israel might say Hungarian Poland.

    It looks like a good ID to me at the moment.

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  • Jay Hartley
    replied
    First time caller on JTR forums.

    Hello to those who don't know me. Apologies to those that do.

    I have been espousing some thoughts over on the other place, and was directed to this thread in particular by another poster.

    I pose the same question here as I did there.

    If Schwartz did not have the endorsement of Swanson from the 19th October onwards, who here would regard him to be a reliable witness?

    There are so many questions not only about his statement, by even how he came to be. (Cue: RJ with some kind of irony reference).

    If you remove his statement from the collection of witness statements, there seems to be more conistency and pattern around the sightings in my view.

    We have an article from The Star on 1st October which announces the witness and some details, but no name. 18 days later Swanson endorses his statement and names him. He never featured in the inquest (would imagine this testimony would be worth hearing), no-one can seem to locate him at those addresses and we even question whether he is Hungarian.

    Nobody finds it strange that a Jewish girl from Hungary (by the name of Schwartz) who was living at 22 Back Church Lane three years prior, was assualted by a group of men. It would have been a case the police were familiar with.

    So many are happy to go along with Swanson on this, who ultimately went on to name a Jewish suspect in his marginalia.

    All very odd.

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  • Chris Phillips
    replied
    Originally posted by R. J. Palmer

    Yes, I agree also. The whole episode is very ambiguous. Back Church Lane could well be a red herring--it's the Ellen Street address--but it is (somewhat) appealing because of the reference to a railway arch, there being no railway arch in the immediate vicinity of 22 Ellen Street.

    Adding to the confusion, we know that Mrs. Schwartz was moving house, but we don't know if 22 Ellen was the 'old' address or the 'new' address.

    It could even be that the second address was a considerable distance away, which is why Schwartz turned down Berner Street--to save himself a long walk in case his wife hadn't made the move--which suggests Ellen Street was the 'old' address.

    Speculation piled upon speculation. I'm on a fool's errand, obviously.
    Swanson doesn't say whether Ellen Street was the old or new address, but the Star report does say he was moving from Berner Street to "Backchurch Lane".

    It is a bit puzzling about the railway arch. There is also a report in the Echo that says a man (assumed to be the murderer) was seen being chased by another man along Fairclough Street. If the man being chased was really Schwartz, that makes it sound as though rather than running south down Berner Street he ran west along Fairclough Street and then south down Backchurch Lane. Though quite why he should have done that I'm not sure.

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  • R. J. Palmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris Phillips

    I think that's right. The report by Swanson said his new address was 22 Helen Street, Backchurch Lane. The Star report just says Backchurch Lane. I don't think there's any other primary source for his address.
    Yes, I agree also. The whole episode is very ambiguous. Back Church Lane could well be a red herring--it's the Ellen Street address--but it is (somewhat) appealing because of the reference to a railway arch, there being no railway arch in the immediate vicinity of 22 Ellen Street.

    Adding to the confusion, we know that Mrs. Schwartz was moving house, but we don't know if 22 Ellen was the 'old' address or the 'new' address.

    It could even be that the second address was a considerable distance away, which is why Schwartz turned down Berner Street--to save himself a long walk in case his wife hadn't made the move--which suggests Ellen Street was the 'old' address.

    Speculation piled upon speculation. I'm on a fool's errand, obviously.

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris Phillips

    I think that's right. The report by Swanson said his new address was 22 Helen Street, Backchurch Lane. The Star report just says Backchurch Lane. I don't think there's any other primary source for his address.
    Thanks Chris.

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  • Chris Phillips
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif

    Thanks RJ
    I'm probably just confusing things unnecessarily here as usual! - I was wondering and wanting to clarify the current opinion on a recent idea that Schwartz was never at 22 Backchurch Lane at all and it was a mistake, based on the fact that the address of 22 Ellen Street was sometimes given as 22 Ellen Street Backchurch Lane? .The clip showing that both 22 and 32 Ellen Street were lodging houses in multiple occupation where the address was given as 22 and 32 Ellen Street, Backchurch Lane.
    I think that's right. The report by Swanson said his new address was 22 Helen Street, Backchurch Lane. The Star report just says Backchurch Lane. I don't think there's any other primary source for his address.

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by R. J. Palmer

    Thanks. No. 32 still existed in 1888 (it can be seen on the map in Post #106, the last house on Back Church Lane before the railway arch), but I'm convinced that all the house below that number were demolished in 1886.

    Which makes me wonder why Schwartz went as far as the railway arch, since there were no longer any houses down that way.

    From the 1891 Census sheet: 'space between 32 & 8 Backchurch Lane is occupied by Railway arches and Coal depot.' An article in the Tower Hamlets Independent seems to indicate that the London and Tilbury Railway Company may have completed this demolition by November 1886.

    Click image for larger version Name:	Back Church Lane 1891.JPG Views:	0 Size:	99.2 KB ID:	578225

    An article at the time of the Pinchin Street torso case described these former buildings as having been "small and dilapidated.'


    Click image for larger version Name:	London and Tilbury.JPG Views:	0 Size:	26.2 KB ID:	578226
    Thanks RJ
    I'm probably just confusing things unnecessarily here as usual! - I was wondering and wanting to clarify the current opinion on a recent idea that Schwartz was never at 22 Backchurch Lane at all and it was a mistake, based on the fact that the address of 22 Ellen Street was sometimes given as 22 Ellen Street Backchurch Lane? .The clip showing that both 22 and 32 Ellen Street were lodging houses in multiple occupation where the address was given as 22 and 32 Ellen Street, Backchurch Lane.

    Leave a comment:


  • R. J. Palmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris Phillips

    It seems that Israel was aged only 30, though, courtesy of www.freebmd.org.uk:
    Deaths Jun 1944
    Schwartz Israel 31 Pancras 1b 25

    Apparently the probate office went to Llandudno for the duration of the Second World War.
    Ah, thanks! That explains it.

    Another one bites the dust. It does seem as if the Brunswick Street tailor is the most likely.

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  • Chris Phillips
    replied
    Originally posted by R. J. Palmer
    This is probably nothing, but there is a Ralph Schwartz [Shwartz], age 4, living in St. George-in-the-East in 1911. His family is Romanian--just across the border from Hungary. It looks like he may have lived on Christian Street in later years.

    None of this would matter, but I noticed there was an Israel Schwartz who died in the West End in 1944 who left his money to a Ralph Schwartz, described as a 'variety artist.' Schwartz was described as looking like someone in the theatrical line, but this was nearly 60 years earlier.

    And Llandudno in Wales seems way out of whack.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	June 1944.JPG
Views:	165
Size:	15.5 KB
ID:	578237
    It seems that Israel was aged only 30, though, courtesy of www.freebmd.org.uk:
    Deaths Jun 1944
    Schwartz Israel 31 Pancras 1b 25

    Apparently the probate office went to Llandudno for the duration of the Second World War.

    Leave a comment:

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