Israel Schwartz - new information

[Debra Arif]

Tracy:

Debs just suggested I look in the A to Z and I did.

Is this Schwartz ( since its not mentioned on the thread ) the one who once lived on Ellen Street ? That's the Hungarian Schwartz.

Thanks very much for going to the trouble of posting all that...I usually have my schnozz buried in the newspapers ( maybe too deep ) and can't keep up with genealogical work such as this. Echoing everyone else...nice work !

How, as John remembers- there has not been a Hungarian Israel Schwartz found on the census. The one suggested as being him, which Tracy has traced further down the line to his death, was born in Poland. I know there has been past discussion about the Austro/Hungarian borders in relation to a Polish Israel Schwartz but there are quite a few Schwartz' families in London who do give their places of birth as Hungary but no Israel.

[Gary Barnett]

How, as John remembers- there has not been a Hungarian Israel Schwartz found on the census. The one suggested as being him, which Tracy has traced further down the line to his death, was born in Poland. I know there has been past discussion about the Austro/Hungarian borders in relation to a Polish Israel Schwartz but there are quite a few Schwartz' families in London who do give their places of birth as Hungary but no Israel.

Are the Princes Square Schwartzes on Ancestry?

[Robert Linford]

Yep, birth 1863, Poland, spouse Eva (1911 census).

[Gary Barnett]

Yep, birth 1863, Poland, spouse Eva (1911 census).

Thanks, Rob. I'll look them up later.

[Anna Morris]

I noticed the Poland birth place in the census but didn't want to comment and maybe appear to criticise the great work and information we have here.

Schwartz was described at the time as a half German, Hungarian and having a theatrical appearance. He could have been born in Poland and spoken a dialect different from mainstream Polish. He could have spoken Hungarian. Half German could refer to Yiddish, I suppose, or a Polish dialect. He was a recent arrival to England in 1888. (His oldest daughter Etta, 25 in 1911, had been born in Poland.) Maybe he wore a coat that looked foreign or theatrical. There is a beautiful style of coat that is specifically Hungarian also.

However Schwartz was described, the ones creating the descriptions may have been guessing.

[Debra Arif]

I noticed the Poland birth place in the census but didn't want to comment and maybe appear to criticise the great work and information we have here.

There has been lots of discussion on the Poland birthplace issue vs Hungary in relation to this ID in the past, Anna. I don't think it was a major problem for the original ID in 1891, which is the root of this follow on research that Tracy has done, but it leaves a little bit of room for wondering if the Hungarian witness, Israel Schwartz,could be a man not yet found. Even if it isn't him, Tracy has definitely discovered what happened to the man thought likely to be the witness, which was previously unknown as far as I know. There's also the possibility that the Star did get his nationality confused, as you say.

[Anna Morris]

There has been lots of discussion on the Poland birthplace issue vs Hungary in relation to this ID in the past, Anna. I don't think it was a major problem for the original ID in 1891, which is the root of this follow on research that Tracy has done, but it leaves a little bit of room for wondering if the Hungarian witness, Israel Schwartz,could be a man not yet found. Even if it isn't him, Tracy has definitely discovered what happened to the man thought likely to be the witness, which was previously unknown as far as I know. There's also the possibility that the Star did get his nationality confused, as you say.

The term Hungarian could have been loose talk or it could have applied to part of Poland which was under the Austrian Empire dating from the First Partition of Poland in 1772. Galicia and Lodomeria became ethnic Polish with Polish administration in 1867 though remaining under Austrian rule until 1917.

If this Israel Schwartz was found to be born in any of these districts it could explain a lot.

[Robert Linford]

This is complicated (well it is for me).


The London Gazette notice in 1918 announced that Louis Schwatz would henceforth be known as Lionel Shorts.


The 1939 register has a Lionel Shorts, with apparent wife Francis (sic) and apparent daughter Marie. Lionel's DOB is given as 4th March 1889.


A Lionel Shorts died 18th January 1961 aged 69. This seems to be our Lionel as Frances Shorts widow and Judah shorts obtained the probate.


There is a Louis Schwartz aged one(?) month with Israel and Eva in the 1891 census.


There was at the Berner St school a Louis Schwitz admitted 31st Aug 1896, left 1st Mar 1897. Father is Israel, a tailor, of 143 B.C. Lane. Date of birth for Louis is 3rd March 1892.


This date seems wrong if this was Tracy's Schwartz, as Louis is in the 1891 census. Against this, if Louis was born in March 1891, then he would have been just short of his 70th birthday when he died.


From trying to trace other children of Israel and Eva, I've noticed that in between 1891 and 1901 they seem to have spent some time at 12 or 13 Queen St. If this is THE Israel Schwartz they would have had to pop back to Backchurch Lane at some point in the 1890s.


All rather confusing but I'm posting it to see what folks think.

[Gary Barnett]

This is complicated (well it is for me).


The London Gazette notice in 1918 announced that Louis Schwatz would henceforth be known as Lionel Shorts.


The 1939 register has a Lionel Shorts, with apparent wife Francis (sic) and apparent daughter Marie. Lionel's DOB is given as 4th March 1889.


A Lionel Shorts died 18th January 1961 aged 69. This seems to be our Lionel as Frances Shorts widow and Judah shorts obtained the probate.


There is a Louis Schwartz aged one(?) month with Israel and Eva in the 1891 census.


There was at the Berner St school a Louis Schwitz admitted 31st Aug 1896, left 1st Mar 1897. Father is Israel, a tailor, of 143 B.C. Lane. Date of birth for Louis is 3rd March 1892.


This date seems wrong if this was Tracy's Schwartz, as Louis is in the 1891 census. Against this, if Louis was born in March 1891, then he would have been just short of his 70th birthday when he died.


From trying to trace other children of Israel and Eva, I've noticed that in between 1891 and 1901 they seem to have spent some time at 12 or 13 Queen St. If this is THE Israel Schwartz they would have had to pop back to Backchurch Lane at some point in the 1890s.


All rather confusing but I'm posting it to see what folks think.

Rob,

Little Louis Schwitz was transferred on 1/3/1897.

There is another record for a LS being enrolled at Berner Street School on the same day, aged 7 (DOB Mar '90).

It's a shot in the dark, but could this be the same boy going from infants to junior school with the first DOB being wrong?

Sod's law, the second record does not provide his father's name or address.

[Robert Linford]

Yes Gary, this is Ripperworld. I'm at my Schwitz end.

[Gary Barnett]

Yes Gary, this is Ripperworld. I'm at my Schwitz end.

Looking at the names, you can see how thoroughly the area had been colonised by Jews.

[Gary Barnett]

Looking at the names, you can see how thoroughly the area had been colonised by Jews.

A generation before this had been Tiger Bay.

[Robert Linford]

They successfully adapted though.


I used to live in an area that had the highest concentration of Jews in Europe. By the time I left, most of them had gone - I've no idea where to.

[Robert Linford]

At the Hanbury St School, apparently on 15th June 1896, was admitted Lewis Schwartz/Swartz, father Israel of 13 Queen St. Lewis has DOB 6th Dec 1890. No last school attended. Left 24th April 1896, i.e. before he joined.


I kid you not.


I think what may have happened is that the joining column is 1895 with a series of dittoes. Further up someone has overwritten the dittoes with the 1896 date, but I take it that Lewis joined on 7th May 1895.

[Robert Linford]

When Esther joins the Berner St school in 1890 Israel is at 16 Brunswick St and Esther's DOB is November 84.