Israel Schwartz - new information

[Howard Brown]

Sorry if I'm being lazy here, but was there ever actually a Hungarian Israel Schwartz that's been found living in the area at the time? There's something very fishy about the article in the Star.
-John Malcolm-

Your post made me remember something. A year or so ago, Nina dug into my family background on the un-researched side and found that my Mom's grandfather ( my great-great grandfather ) was born in Poland, but in other records listed as an ethnic Slovak. My grandpop, his son, was born in Hungary, but considered himself ( with fists if necessary ) an Austrian.

Unremarkable, no doubt, but it now makes me wonder whether Israel Schwartz was Polish ( born there ) and for some unknown ( to us ) reason ( maybe his Mom had Hungarian roots ) considered himself a Hungarian Jew ( maybe he spoke Hungarian better than Polish...and that's why a Hungarian translator was looked for).

[Robert Linford]

Does anyone know whether Hungarians spoke Yiddish?

[Gary Barnett]

Does anyone know whether Hungarians spoke Yiddish?

Not sure if this helps.

https://www.jewishgen.org/databases/GivenNames/yiddial.htm

[Robert Linford]

Thanks Gary. I was wondering if all the police and the Star had to do, was find a Yiddish speaker.

[Sam Flynn]

Does anyone know whether Hungarians spoke Yiddish?

It was practically a Jewish lingua franca throughout Europe and Russia.

[Robert Linford]

Thanks Gareth.

[Anna Morris]

Does anyone know whether Hungarians spoke Yiddish?

I think we have all heard the term Esperanto,a created language of words from many languages that all can share. It didn't seem to catch on though occasionally some of the words I run through the translators are said to be found in Esperanto. This language was devised by East European Jews. Surprise?

I don't see a connection made officially but Esperanto seems like a cousin of Yiddish which is an amalgamation of shared words, heavy on German.

Yiddish is used across a wide spectrum of Jewish populations, including Hungary. The Hungarian language has also accumulated some German. At the same time, the Hungarian language is an isolate without either Slavonic or German roots. Perhaps this could influence Yiddish speaking in Hungary proper.

Slavonic languages in particular, multiplied over the centuries. They are mutually intelligible by percentages, some widely separated. I have detailed the many crazy alphabets and writing systems used for these languages in my Voynich Manuscript work.

My point is, no wonder Yiddish got invented. Surely it must have been a great help for Hungarian speakers surrounded by Slavonic or German speakers.

[Gary Barnett]

Does it tell us anything that Israel's surname has come down to us as Schwartz which sounds Germanic to my untutored ear?

[Robert Linford]

Thanks Anna.


Gary I think the name is of German origin, though the Jewish version may have been spelt slightly differently.


In the 1911 census it was stated that the couple had six children still alive and five deceased. Unfortunately it is Israel who does the stating. Assuming that this is right and that the 28 years of marriage Israel gives is correct, they'd have been married abroad c1883. There are two school records giving Ettie's birth as 1884 - different months in 1884 but there you go.


Barring twins or triplets, it would seem odd if all five fatalities occurred before the couple's arrival here. It would also seem odd if the couple had no children between 1884 and 1891. There may have been one or two deaths abroad, with the rest after they arrived. I've been looking at possible births in the UK between 1884 and 1890, but there's nothing that jumps out at me.

[Sam Flynn]

Does it tell us anything that Israel's surname has come down to us as Schwartz which sounds Germanic to my untutored ear?

It derives from schwarz, the German word for "black", which is pronounced something like "shvartz" (indeed, the Yiddish word is shvarts). The surname was used by gentiles and Jews, but it has been quite frequently encountered in Jewish families for many centuries. Its origin might have had something to do with the dark pigmentation of a person's skin and/or hair, in much the same way that the (English) surnames "Black", "Brown" or "White" originated in some cases.

Interesting info here:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0807/names.php3

[Gary Barnett]

It derives from schwarz, the German word for "black", which is pronounced something like "shvartz" (indeed, the Yiddish word is shvarts). The surname was used by gentiles and Jews, but it has been quite frequently encountered in Jewish families for many centuries. Its origin might have had something to do with the dark pigmentation of a person's skin and/or hair, in much the same way that the (English) surnames "Black", "Brown" or "White" originated in some cases.

Interesting info here:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0807/names.php3

If his first language had been a Slavic one, would he still have used the Germanic Schwartz was what I was wondering.

Actually, German is the only foreign languuage I have any knowledge of.

[Robert Linford]

Schaufel
Pferdeschlachter

[Gary Barnett]

Schaufel
Pferdeschlachter

Ich bin ein pfeder-Berliner hersteller...

[Sam Flynn]

If his first language had been a Slavic one, would he still have used the Germanic Schwartz was what I was wondering.

Yiddish names had few boundaries.

[Sam Flynn]

If his first language had been a Slavic one, would he still have used the Germanic Schwartz was what I was wondering.

Yiddish surnames knew few boundaries.