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Matthew Packer : Greengrocer & Witness

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  • Originally posted by San Fran View Post
    Do you believe in the corroborating witnesses who all said Elizabeth Stride was out with a gentleman, like she was out on a date, for 2 hours or more, starting in the pub? I'm sure any visiting "gentleman" could afford grapes as much as they could afford a prostitute. I counted 5 witnesses to Stride and gentleman, with minor contradictions, IMO.

    And what is your opinion on a pathologist being able to detect grapes by sight in a "vomit pile" of stomach contents after an hour of digestion mixed with potatoes, cheese and bread stuff, when the peel and likely the seeds were spit out? "Never touched or swallowed grapes"? How can that be determined?
    It's been a while since I got 'into' Stride's last night, San....I'd have to go with the opinion that she was out with someone who purchased grapes.

    I've not only no idea how they could ascertain that grape pulp was in that melange...but how they could differentiate it from the potatoes and cheese when mixed.
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    • Not including Packer, there were 5 witnesses coming forward, including a police officer, describing 4 separate sightings and encounters over an hour and 45 minutes. It's highly unlikely that it wasn't the same man. I don't think Liz hooked up with three or four different clients in less than 2 hours after leaving the bar with one, especially not when she said, "Not tonight," in one of the reported sightings.

      https://www.casebook.org/timeline.stride.html

      Comment


      • Originally posted by San Fran View Post



        And what is your opinion on a pathologist being able to detect grapes by sight in a "vomit pile" of stomach contents after an hour of digestion mixed with potatoes, cheese and bread stuff, when the peel and likely the seeds were spit out? "Never touched or swallowed grapes"? How can that be determined?
        From the time of the murder, to the time the post-mortem was conducted, it was some 38 hours, or thereabouts.
        Had there been any grape 'flesh' in her stomach at the time of death it would not have survived for 38 hours.
        Regards, Jon S.
        "
        The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
        " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
        Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by San Fran View Post
          Not including Packer, there were 5 witnesses coming forward, including a police officer, describing 4 separate sightings and encounters over an hour and 45 minutes. It's highly unlikely that it wasn't the same man. I don't think Liz hooked up with three or four different clients in less than 2 hours after leaving the bar with one, especially not when she said, "Not tonight," in one of the reported sightings.

          https://www.casebook.org/timeline.stride.html
          There were at least two couples walking or standing in Berner St. around the time of the murder besides Stride & her man. If I recall, the "not tonight" was spoken between one of those couples, but not everyone agrees on the number of couples.
          Regards, Jon S.
          "
          The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
          " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
          Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post

            There were at least two couples walking or standing in Berner St. around the time of the murder besides Stride & her man. If I recall, the "not tonight" was spoken between one of those couples, but not everyone agrees on the number of couples.
            I think you’re right, WM. The “not tonight” was probably the second couple. They were also there at 1240 for 20 min and James Brown saw his couple and heard them around 1245.

            Liz was fed but probably still needed her doss money. Nonetheless the other 3 or 4 sightings were likely of her with her “gentleman”. At least two of them saw his “parcel”.

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            • Originally posted by San Fran View Post

              Liz was fed but probably still needed her doss money. Nonetheless the other 3 or 4 sightings were likely of her with her “gentleman”. At least two of them saw his “parcel”.
              Considering Packer saw Stride with a man about 12:30, who had just bought a package of grapes, and PC Smith saw Stride with a man about 12:35 carrying a parcel, then the obvious conclusion in any other crime series would be that Packer & Smith saw Stride with the same man.
              Anywhere else, but here......
              Regards, Jon S.
              "
              The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
              " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
              Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
                Considering Packer saw Stride with a man about 12:30, who had just bought a package of grapes, and PC Smith saw Stride with a man about 12:35 carrying a parcel, then the obvious conclusion in any other crime series would be that Packer & Smith saw Stride with the same man.
                Anywhere else, but here......
                Thanks for clearing that up for me, WM. I thought the package contained his knife. But you're right. The earlier witnesses didn't see a package. This would explain that. Those were the grapes.

                Comment


                • In his statement to Sgt White, Packer claimed the whole encounter with Stride & the man who bought the grapes took place between 11:45 until he closed up shop at around 12:30. He told the same story to the papers.
                  The anomaly is the summary penned by Carmichael-Bruce (A.C.B.) where the times are changed to 11:00 - 11:30, where did that come from?

                  We know that the police were aware of the statements by the two witnesses (Best & Gardner) at the Bricklayer's Arms who saw Stride and a man outside the pub about 11:00pm, so the summary by A.C.B. is obviously erroneous, yet it seems to have unduly influenced modern researchers.
                  Best & Gardiner's statements confirm that Stride (and her man) could not have bought grapes at 11:00, so we must set that statement aside.

                  I'm inclined to think the source might have been Packer himself, otherwise there seems to be little cause for Swanson to dismiss him as unreliable. The fact Packer did claim at first to have seen no-one, and nothing suspicious, only then to come up with quite a detailed story to both the police & the press is not uncommon, it happens frequently today. Some witnesses at first choose to not get involved, only to later open up. That fact in itself is not cause to dismiss a witness, but if Packer made at least one statement to police using different times, that is justification for their dismissal as a reliable witness.
                  If this is what happened, then we are left with the bigger question of 'why?'
                  Regards, Jon S.
                  "
                  The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                  " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                  Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                  Comment


                  • I understand perfectly the reticence to come forward initially, and then feeling compelled to report, especially if two private detectives show up at your door with a grape stalk. I'm assuming Grand and Batchelor found the stalks first. The altering of the times was either done by Packer or the police. Either way, that only supports the testimony that grapes were sold even if it was at 11:30.

                    If Packer changed it, it means he was reporting a sighting about an hour and a half before the murder. How could he have known or assumed Stride was on a date with the Ripper and he was a major witness? Is that how a publicity-hungry person tries to make a splash in the papers? The police, taking the statement, are at least acknowledging Liz was with a gentleman leaving the pub at 11 and he could have bought grapes for her. (I see no police denial of there possibly being a grape stalk at the murder scene, and I doubt they did a ground search for evidence like grape seeds and skins.) The time of the sale really makes little difference if she was on a date and she was with the same man she left the pub with. I'm sure the police automatically thought she dumped him and found another client who turned out to be the Ripper.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
                      It's been a while since I got 'into' Stride's last night, San....I'd have to go with the opinion that she was out with someone who purchased grapes.

                      I've not only no idea how they could ascertain that grape pulp was in that melange...but how they could differentiate it from the potatoes and cheese when mixed.
                      I never got into it at all until now. I still thought she had a bag of nuts in her hand and cashews freshen your breath! Mint, huh?

                      I could never understand the issue with the grapes. Why even bother with a categorical denial? I'm guessing their hand was forced by private investigators putting the police performance into question.

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