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Matthew Packer : Greengrocer & Witness

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post

    And here you're lecturing me on overstatement and supposition.

    I'm looking forward to my lecture on grammar and punctuation from Jeff Feahy.

    Or how to win friends and influence people by Spiro Dimoblahblah

    Or the virtue of brevity by Christer Holmgren and Phil Carter.

    Or the art of subtlety by Trevor Marriott

    Or...
    Whew....
    I can see I dodged a bullet there

    I guess we should just wait for the book, speaking of which, we are about due for another 'Final Solution', any word on a publications date?

    .
    Regards, Jon S.
    "
    The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
    " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
    Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
      I guess we should just wait for the book, speaking of which, we are about due for another 'Final Solution', any word on a publications date?
      Let the research be done yet. This Le Grand guy had his fingers in a lot of places.
      Best regards,
      Maria

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post

        Tom

        Your assured statement that we know that Le Grand placed the grape stalk is precisely the sort of unsubstantiated claim that you will not be challenged about by the usual suspects!
        Thats OK Ed. when 'they' resort to the old 'everybody knows but you', card, we can see it's just another way of trying to stifle contention.
        A worn out attempt to make you feel isolated, do you feel isolated Ed?, do I?


        We'll just put it down to Tom's unique sense of humor.

        .
        Regards, Jon S.
        "
        The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
        " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
        Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

        Comment


        • #34
          Nevertheless Tom, however convinced you are by your own theory, and however convincing it may be to others, it is not a fact that Le Grand planted the grape stalk.
          I hope I don’t lapse into saying it is a fact that Charles Lechmere is the Ripper and I endeavour when possible to couch my statements with ifs, possible, in my opinion etc. Although sometimes I may err when I type something out in a rush I suppose.

          I know it’s tiresome to do this and I’m not really knocking you to be firm in your own convictions as there is nothing wrong with being sure in your own mind about something.
          I just wanted to point out the inconsistency in the approach to the verities in this case – by you (to a lesser extent) and by others (to a greater extent).

          But I don’t think you are one of the ‘meanies’.
          And I don’t take things personally – you colonials have an innate inability to detect irony, don’t you know?
          Furthermore you forgot:
          ‘The art of hanging Venetian Blinds without cord’ By Tom Wescott.

          Here’s a plausible explanation for the grape stalk...
          It was innocently transferred to the location on the sole of someone’s shoe after the police had searched the site.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
            It was innocently transferred to the location on the sole of someone’s shoe after the police had searched the site.

            And innocently encountered by a certain private eye. Who innocently presented it to the press.
            Best regards,
            Maria

            Comment


            • #36
              He could have just opportunistically seized on it to try and make his name as a red hot PI and show the WVS that he was worthy of employment.
              I don't take issue with Tom's version as a plausible explanation. But it is a theory not fact.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post

                Here’s a plausible explanation for the grape stalk...
                It was innocently transferred to the location on the sole of someone’s shoe after the police had searched the site.
                Ed. I wouldn't worry too much about how the stalk got there, at the time the yard search was under way no-one was looking for a grape stalk. It could easily have been there among any number of bits of general yard waste, paper, leaves, etc.
                Because Packer lived almost next door to the yard and he sold fruit then bits of fruit, seeds, skins and wrappers, could have been scattered in the area from other customers.
                The grape stalk could also have been from some other customer to his shop, nothing to do with Liz at all.

                Tom chooses to think the police would have seen a stalk if it was there. The truth of the matter is that the yard search was done in the dark (before 4:30am) and they were looking for blood, weapons, footprints?, and any tangible evidence of a crime taking place, not a piece of twig, or squashed grapes.

                By the time daylight came the yard had been swilled and the blood, along with any evidence of grapes, washed away and into a grate.

                What we do not have is a comment by the police that they lifted the grate to check for further evidence. They may have, but without a statement to that effect no-one can claim a thorough search was done.

                So the state of evidence we have is that an incomplete search was done in the yard by police while it was still dark.
                Was typical yard waste overlooked? Before daylight the yard was swilled and the blood and yard waste is washed and perhaps swept away into a grate.

                LeGrand, either using his initiative or simply lying we cannot at this point tell, claims to have found a grape stalk in the grate.

                The amusing aspect for me is that we are expected to believe an experienced conman would have to invent a grape story at all.
                The woman was seen with another man many times in the street that night, the idea a cover story involving grapes is required is ludicrous.

                What we have here is not a theory which looks to explain every serious aspect of the crime, but a drama being invented to account for every inconsequential detail no matter how innocuous.

                But hey, lets not stifle creativity I'm prepared to wait for the book. I've dusted off a wide section of shelf 'cause this book will answer all the questions we've ever had (and some we never considered) so its gonna be a big'un.

                .
                Regards, Jon S.
                "
                The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                Comment


                • #38
                  North Eastern Daily Gazette
                  October 5, 1888
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                  • #39
                    Hi Ed, thanks for that.

                    Hi Wick, no thanks for that.

                    But I'm delighted by the back peddling. You can put the grapestalk in Dutfield's Yard however you'd like as long as we're all in agreement with the fact that Packer was a liar, then the rest falls into place from there. It requires no finagling from me.

                    Yours truly,

                    Tom Wescott

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Dundee Courier & Argus
                      October 5, 1888
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                      • #41
                        Freeman's Journal
                        October 5, 1888
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                        • #42
                          Aberdeen Weekly Journal
                          October 8, 1888
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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post

                            Hi Wick, no thanks for that.

                            But I'm delighted by the back peddling. You can put the grapestalk in Dutfield's Yard however you'd like as long as we're all in agreement with the fact that Packer was a liar, then the rest falls into place from there. It requires no finagling from me.

                            Yours truly,

                            Tom Wescott
                            Hi Tom.
                            Just creating a little clarity in the ensuing fog

                            I thought you'd recognise a little harmless sarcasm, you dish enough of it out. But seriously, your work on LeGrand (conjectural content aside) will prove to be a benefit.

                            Yes, Packer told a lie. Seeing as how he first said he saw nothing, but then saw something, we are left to debate 'which' was the lie, and to what extent...

                            .
                            Regards, Jon S.
                            "
                            The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                            " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                            Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Note the remark about the sketch near the end of the article...


                              Birmingham Daily Post
                              October 8, 1888
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                              • #45
                                North Eastern Daily Gazette
                                October 31, 1888
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