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Matthew Packer : Greengrocer & Witness

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  • #46
    Belfast News-Letter
    November 1, 1888
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    • #47
      Bristol Mercury
      November 1, 1888
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      • #48
        The Morning Post
        November 15, 1888
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        • #49
          North Eastern Daily Gazette
          November 15, 1888
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          • #50
            Aberdeen Weekly Journal
            November 16, 1888
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            • #51
              Birmingham Daily Post
              November 16, 1888
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              • #52
                Hiya 'aitch.
                Some good examples here, I see you have unearthed an interesting nugget on Hutchinson (post 22) where the article suggests that Hutchinson was not so quickly dropped as has been assumed by some.

                "The police are now to a great extent concentrating their efforts upon an endeavour to find a man so vividly described by George Hutchinson.."
                Dated, 16 Nov. 1888.

                Anyway, not to distract from Packer, a necessary thread How. good job.

                .
                Regards, Jon S.
                "
                The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

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                • #53
                  Off Topic - Just for Tom.

                  Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                  .... I'd rather get Wick talking again about the Mitre Square witnesses, which is a subject where he's had some pretty valuable feedback in the past.
                  I think I found it, you have no idea how tough that was....


                  What did you want to do?

                  .
                  Regards, Jon S.
                  "
                  The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                  " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                  Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Thanks Jon...I tried to pull out as many articles from outside London as I could. Several papers are mirror images of each other on specific dates...but these had some different features within them I thought worthwhile.
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                    • #55
                      Jon:
                      By the way, I appreciate you mentioning the amount of time between her death and her autopsy.
                      Grapes ( European grapes, like Thompson seedless ) are 81 percent water.

                      I think, therefore, it would not be difficult to overlook any remnants of grapes, especially with the time factor.
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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
                        Jon:
                        By the way, I appreciate you mentioning the amount of time between her death and her autopsy.
                        Grapes ( European grapes, like Thompson seedless ) are 81 percent water.

                        I think, therefore, it would not be difficult to overlook any remnants of grapes, especially with the time factor.
                        The other 19% would have been skins. In any event, Dr. Phillips was asked to look for grape seeds, which tells me a) Packer claimed to have sold her seeded grapes, and b) Phillips would not have overlooked them. As for the often brought up but no less impossible notion that she managed to eat through these grapes without swallowing a single skin or seed, had this amazing feat been achieved, there was no pile of skins or seeds where Packer had her standing. This is because he never saw her nor sold her any grapes.

                        The police actually took Violenia more seriously than they did Packer, so where's all the threads arguing for HIS veracity, I wonder? There is, after all, a much better argument for Violenia having told the truth than Packer, though think both were a couple of poo poo heads.


                        Hi Wick,

                        I didn't mean for you to go to so much work into it. I thought you had your research at hand where you could copy and paste it. Perhaps you'd consider starting your own thread on the subject of Lawende, the different descriptions, and kick it off with your own thoughts and theories on that subject. If you're not interested in doing so, then please just e-mail me what you have so I can follow it out from there. Thanks.

                        Yours truly,

                        Tom Wescott

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                        • #57
                          Good point about the seeds, Tom...I didn't take that into consideration.
                          I'm not supporting Packer's statement about selling the two grapes...just thanking Jon for bringing up a point or two on the composition of grapes.
                          FYI, people do spit grape seeds out, Tom.... if they dislike them.

                          38 hours between the alleged consumption of these grapes and her autopsy....makes you wonder.
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                          • #58
                            Obviously everybody is different but I spit out the seeds, and the skins are bitter to my taste so that is spit out too.
                            I can well understand anyone spitting out both the skins & seeds, then there will be other who just crunch away

                            I found an interesting snippet that made me smile.
                            On another thread on CB a poster wondered why Stride was said to have bled so much (true or false, who knows?).

                            Apparently red/black grapes contain antioxidants which inhibit the ability of blood to clot, and..
                            "More recent studies have shown that the proanthcyanadins and polyphenols in the dark pigment of the purple grapes are potent antioxidants that prevent premature blood clotting.
                            http://www.healthedcorp.com/articles..._the_Blood.pdf

                            Just incase anyone is interested...
                            Regards, Jon S.
                            "
                            The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                            " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                            Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Tom, Jon...
                              It just occurred to me....I had intended to try this before some time ago when I had them and giving my "report"...that I do not think black grapes or dark grapes are capable of leaving stains on your hands by merely holding them and eating them....and maybe not any way at all.
                              For one thing, unless Stride stripped the skins off the grapes ( I know someone who did that with grapes before....but that person is an extreme exception, I'd wager ).....and held the peeled pulp in her hands, there couldn't be any stains.
                              Try "staining" your hands with unpeeled dark grapes....I've had my share over the years and never, not once, did my hands get remotely stained.

                              Grapes ain't walnuts or pistachios.
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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                                Hi Wick,

                                I didn't mean for you to go to so much work into it. I thought you had your research at hand where you could copy and paste it.
                                I wish I were so organized. Typically by the time I've looked up the answer to the same question for the fourth or fifth time then I smarten up and file it away for future reference.

                                The post I think you were referring to concerned my observation that Lawende's suspect slowly changed in detail, and I think partly influenced by the Schwartz suspect.
                                Lawende's suspect was not described as having the appearance of a sailor in the initial description, but it has become popular to refer to him that way.

                                Anyhow, not to derail the Packer thread...

                                I wanted to ask you this, in your research have you come across anything in print that might explain why Packer changed his mind from first telling Sgt White on the 30th that he saw nothing, to providing significant detail to the Evening News on the 4th?

                                Marshall, Brown & Smith did not give evidence until the 5th, published on the 6th. So, claiming Packer was influenced by other suspects seen in the street is difficult to substantiate.

                                If I was forced to be liberal and take description over timing I'd say Pipeman is possibly the man seen by Packer with Stride. Alternately if the time given by Packer is more important than description then the suspect seen by PC Smith at 12:30 is the one most likely seen by Packer.

                                .
                                Regards, Jon S.
                                "
                                The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                                " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                                Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                                Comment

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