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  • PC Watkins

    Inspired by remarks made by Neil Bell & Tom Wescott

    Does anyone have a problem with Watkins testimony regarding the officer and his beat on the night of Catherine Eddowes' murder ?
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  • #2
    nibble

    Hello Howard. Thanks for starting this thread.

    I'll bite.

    1. Watkins beat was set. No problem.

    2. Many City PC's walked the reverse beat from time to time. No problem there.

    3. My problem is to ascertain how Kate's assailant knew he was on the reverse beat that night.

    4. If he were unaware of the direction of his beat, then surely he would be expecting him through Church passage? Looks like Watkins might come upon him from Mitre Street.

    Any ideas?

    Cheers.
    LC

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    • #3
      Lynn:

      Welcome to the boards

      I had hoped Tom and Neil would get involved with this thread....but let me take a stab in the meantime.

      You suggest :

      4. If he were unaware of the direction of his beat, then surely he would be expecting him through Church passage? Looks like Watkins might come upon him from Mitre Street.

      My reply to this ( not that you're wrong ) is if the killer was unaware of the direction, should we expect him to have guessed either or any of the ways to enter the Square ? One would be as good as the other, wouldn't it ?
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      • #4
        options

        Hello Howard. Thanks for the welcome.

        If the assassin is aware of the beats, then he would expect:

        1. Harvey to come down Church passage and either,

        A. stop before entering the square, or

        B. shine his light into the square before retreating

        2. Watkins to come through Church passage and into the square.

        If he is listening for steps, then at first sound he could retreat into Mitre Street and disappear before Watkins or, possibly, Harvey, could grasp the situation.

        But with Watkins coming from Mitre Street, it seems that he would not risk going that direction (pace Gavin Bromley). Then Gareth's idea of St. James passage seems best.

        The way it looks, if he went through Church passage, Harvey would have him; if through Mitre Street, Watkins would have him. So St. James passage--with only Blenkingsop--would be most inviting.

        Since he was not pinched, I must plump for this solution. Problem is, if he hears Harvey at 1.42, might he not think it is Watkins and head out opposite, running bang into Watkins? However, if he knows about the reverse beat . . .

        Cheers.
        LC

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        • #5
          What are the specific issues with 3 and 4?

          I don't think the reversal of the beat makes any difference regarding the time however, as you say, it impacts on the direction.

          Watkins, and Morris, seem to be creatures of habit though. Morris is quite important in my mind as he states that saturday was the only night he wasn't in the square smoking his pipe at 1 till 2 am.

          Lucky Jack.

          Monty

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          • #6
            Unlucky Catherine ???
            "be just and fear not"

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            • #7
              Yes Jenni,

              Fair comment.

              Monty

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              • #8
                Morris is quite important in my mind as he states that Saturday was the only night he wasn't in the square smoking his pipe at 1 till 2 am.--Neil Bell

                Thanks for that Neil....I don't recall hearing that before !
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                • #9
                  time

                  Hello Neil. Thanks.

                  Unless Mitre Square were the exact halfway point, would not all the times be thrown off as well?

                  Here's my thinking.

                  Let's consider an extremely simple model with 5 points--A, B, C, D and E. Let's assign times 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 (as minute markers).

                  So at A, no time has elapsed. At B, 1 minute etc. So D would be reached at T = 3. However, if one starts in reverse at E, and that is at 0, D should be reached at 1. A 2 minute difference.

                  Cheers.
                  LC

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                  • #10
                    busy

                    Hello Neil, Howard. Was not his lack of pipe smoking due to his being extra busy that night?

                    Cheers.
                    LC

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                    • #11
                      Lynn:

                      Neil might know...offhand I can't tell you whether that night was a little busier for Morris or not. Sorry !
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                      • #12
                        Hi Lynn - welcome to the forums

                        IIRC Morris said as a rule he went outside into the square for a smoke but that he was sweeping - the stairs I think, with the door ajar

                        I've recently seen a press report posted by Howard stating that Morris was reading

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                        • #13
                          clean sweep

                          Hello Nemo. Thanks.

                          I thought he was somehow indisposed. The sweeping would explain that.

                          Cheers.
                          LC

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                          • #14
                            Why should the culprit have known the beat?
                            Would he have known every beat in every crime scene?
                            That is a lot of beat knowledge to carry around.

                            But it's more likely the victims did as they were killed on their own patch.
                            I pressume The victims were actively soliciting prior to their deaths.
                            While doing this they would have had an eye open for the local plod.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Nemo View Post
                              Hi Lynn - welcome to the forums

                              IIRC Morris said as a rule he went outside into the square for a smoke but that he was sweeping - the stairs I think, with the door ajar

                              I've recently seen a press report posted by Howard stating that Morris was reading
                              That would be interesting to read Paul,

                              Can you nudge me in the direction of it?

                              Monty

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