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  • #61
    Originally posted by Steve Blomer View Post
    Hi Jerry,

    First things first I never like exact timings, they are bound to be faulty, I prefer relative timings, that is how long after another event does something happen.





    Jerry my mapping suggests it nearer 111 yards than 60-80 yards



    At regulation walking speed it would take 75-90 seconds for walking alone, I would be OK with 2 minutes total, but may allow up to 2 minutes 30 seconds



    You allow for no time for Andrews to check Mackenzie, say at least 30 seconds.
    Running back yes a minute sounds fine, that gives us a possible minimum time of stopping Jacobs after the two police meet of 3 to 4 minutes

    Jacobs is about 111 yards away himself, so he will get to the point he is stopped by Andrews between 1-2 minutes after he leaves home.
    This implies either he or the Police are out on their estimations by a minute or too which is fair I think.




    Would he run back to the body, or just go quickly?
    However I see no issue with 2 minutes.

    That gives me a total of 5 to 6 minutes after the meeting with Badham.



    We know the neck cut was the cause of death and lead to death due to blood loss, so 6-7 minutes sounds good to me, given only vessels on one side were cut..
    So either the killer had fled, before Andrews arrived, certainly possible especially by Whitechapel road, or he was hiding near by(I do not exclude in one of the houses). When Andrews ran North he then left while Andrews attention was diverted, there is a window of some 1-2 minutes before the whistle is blown, which surely would have alerted the man on fixed point duty.

    Why did he give misleading evidence?
    Possibly because he panicked on finding yet another Ripper victim, and should have blown his whistle before running North, and wanted to cover up that fault.
    Maybe there is a more sinister reason, maybe he was involved in the murder himself and needed to manufacture a time gap.

    Personally I like he was hiding and left has Andrews ran after Jacobs, it is a very good fit, having said that there is certainly time for the attacker to have fled before Andrews initial arrival.


    Steve
    Hi Steve,

    A couple of things before I respond completely. I am still digesting what you said.

    You need to remember the earlier end of this scenario. Before Andrews and Badham met. PC Joseph Allen had just come out of the alley prior to Andrews and didn't mention a dead body or see any suspicious persons. Immediately after Badham arrived at the body he ran after Allen and caught him in Commercial Street and informed him of the murder. PC Allen bases his timings on the fact he had a watch and heard the church bell. He said Badham informed him of the murder at 12:55 and told him to alert the station. Allen arrived at the station at 1:00. This makes sense as DI Reid got word at 1:05 and Dr Phillips arrived at 1:10.

    Also, I used the testimony of Andrews for the meeting at the Three Crowns (12:50). Badham says he was at the Three Crowns at 12 minutes to 1 (12:48). They could both be correct and fits what I have been saying about one of the two arrived before the other at the Three Crowns. So, if Badham were there 2 minutes or so earlier than Andrews, why didn't he see or hear the murder taking place? And don't forget Sgt. Herwin's (Irwin) statement.

    Sgt. Herwin at 12:55- "she must have been killed a few minutes before".


    It sounds like you are saying the neck cut occurred at about 12:50 like I said?

    More in a bit.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
      Hi Steve,

      A couple of things before I respond completely. I am still digesting what you said.

      You need to remember the earlier end of this scenario. Before Andrews and Badham met. PC Joseph Allen had just come out of the alley prior to Andrews and didn't mention a dead body or see any suspicious persons. Immediately after Badham arrived at the body he ran after Allen and caught him in Commercial Street and informed him of the murder. PC Allen bases his timings on the fact he had a watch and heard the church bell. He said Badham informed him of the murder at 12:55 and told him to alert the station. Allen arrived at the station at 1:00. This makes sense as DI Reid got word at 1:05 and Dr Phillips arrived at 1:10.

      Also, I used the testimony of Andrews for the meeting at the Three Crowns (12:50). Badham says he was at the Three Crowns at 12 minutes to 1 (12:48). They could both be correct and fits what I have been saying about one of the two arrived before the other at the Three Crowns. So, if Badham were there 2 minutes or so earlier than Andrews, why didn't he see or hear the murder taking place? And don't forget Sgt. Herwin's (Irwin) statement.

      Sgt. Herwin at 12:55- "she must have been killed a few minutes before".


      It sounds like you are saying the neck cut occurred at about 12:50 like I said?

      More in a bit.
      I would give a range as I always do because I hate exact times.
      So many issues with timekeeping.
      To me the murder takes place 4-6 minutes before Andrews and Badham go back to the body .

      If you insist on a time 12.48 - 12.52.

      More probably earlier end of that scale.

      Steve

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Steve Blomer View Post
        I would give a range as I always do because I hate exact times.
        So many issues with timekeeping.
        To me the murder takes place 4-6 minutes before Andrews and Badham go back to the body .

        If you insist on a time 12.48 - 12.52.

        More probably earlier end of that scale.

        Steve
        Steve,

        She was murdered 4-6 minutes before they went back to the body? Do you realize what you just said? She was already murdered when they went back to the "body". And one other thing, if Isaac Lewis Jacobs saw blood squirting/gushing/running very fast 4-6 minutes after the discovery of the body, what did Andrews see 4-6 minutes earlier when he found the body?

        Comment


        • #64
          Steve,

          Here are a few puzzling statements that need to be reconciled as well.

          Echo London Middlesex July 17, 1889



          Echo London Middlesex July 17, 1889



          Lloyds Weekly Newspaper
          Sunday, July 21, 1889, London, Middlesex




          DI Reid also made a statement that the alley was hardly left alone for five minutes. I can't seem to find it. I know I have posted it somewhere in one of the McKenzie threads.

          There is also a statement that there were four constables at all the entrances throughout the night. There was also an officer assigned to "special duty" to patrol the alley. An ex-metropolitan police officer was not more than "40 yards" from the scene of the murder and heard nothing. There was a fixed point officer at Whitechapel Road.

          With all of this, how on earth did this guy escape? Or better yet, how on earth did he find the time to sneak in with Alice and murder her, then escape without any notice?

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
            Steve,

            She was murdered 4-6 minutes before they went back to the body? Do you realize what you just said? She was already murdered when they went back to the "body". And one other thing, if Isaac Lewis Jacobs saw blood squirting/gushing/running very fast 4-6 minutes after the discovery of the body, what did Andrews see 4-6 minutes earlier when he found the body?
            Jerry
            Sorry, its the use of language.
            I did not say she was dead, she was attacked 4-6 minutes before. That to me is the time of the murderous attack. It was a fatal wound I believe, no chance of recovery. That was what I meant, not her time of death.
            Sorry if I confused you.

            Steve

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
              Steve,

              Here are a few puzzling statements that need to be reconciled as well.

              Echo London Middlesex July 17, 1889



              Echo London Middlesex July 17, 1889



              Lloyds Weekly Newspaper
              Sunday, July 21, 1889, London, Middlesex




              DI Reid also made a statement that the alley was hardly left alone for five minutes. I can't seem to find it. I know I have posted it somewhere in one of the McKenzie threads.

              There is also a statement that there were four constables at all the entrances throughout the night. There was also an officer assigned to "special duty" to patrol the alley. An ex-metropolitan police officer was not more than "40 yards" from the scene of the murder and heard nothing. There was a fixed point officer at Whitechapel Road.

              With all of this, how on earth did this guy escape? Or better yet, how on earth did he find the time to sneak in with Alice and murder her, then escape without any notice?
              I think the answer must be :
              1. He went into a house.
              2. He hide until Andrews turned back North then left before the whistle was blown.
              3. The attacker managed to escape before Andrews got back from meeting Bad ham
              4. Andrews was involved.
              I see no other real alternatives

              Steve

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Steve Blomer View Post
                I think the answer must be :
                1. He went into a house.
                2. He hide until Andrews turned back North then left before the whistle was blown.
                3. The attacker managed to escape before Andrews got back from meeting Bad ham
                4. Andrews was involved.
                I see no other real alternatives

                Steve
                Thanks Steve,

                So if Sgt. Badham was close in his testimony that he was at the corner by the Three Crowns at 12:48 and you think (not holding you to anything) the fatal cut was between 12:48 and 12:52, then the killer certainly did not head in that direction to escape. In fact he would have been cutting away while Badham stood at the corner. He would also have heard the footsteps of Andrews approaching from Wentworth Street on his way to meet Badham. Which brings me to another point, footsteps. Andrews was able to hear Isaac Jacobs footsteps at the opposite end of the street, so if Badham and Andrews were within 111 yards of the murder, would they not hear a fleeing suspect? You also had your range for the time of the fatal cut up to 12:52. Isn't that about when Andrews would have arrived at the body after parting with Badham?

                As far as escaping into a house goes.



                The houses the last line of the clip refers to are the back of the houses that front Newcastle Street. There really were no more houses in the alley at the time at that end. They were demolished and replaced by a high hoarding.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                  Thanks Steve,

                  So if Sgt. Badham was close in his testimony that he was at the corner by the Three Crowns at 12:48 and you think (not holding you to anything) the fatal cut was between 12:48 and 12:52, then the killer certainly did not head in that direction to escape. In fact he would have been cutting away while Badham stood at the corner. He would also have heard the footsteps of Andrews approaching from Wentworth Street on his way to meet Badham. Which brings me to another point, footsteps. Andrews was able to hear Isaac Jacobs footsteps at the opposite end of the street, so if Badham and Andrews were within 111 yards of the murder, would they not hear a fleeing suspect? You also had your range for the time of the fatal cut up to 12:52. Isn't that about when Andrews would have arrived at the body after parting with Badham?
                  Yes however I am far from convinced by absolute times, the problems with LVP timings are well known. That's why I work on relative timings. My timings are from the known events: Andrews meets Badham, and his return to the body with Badham with the descriptions of heavy bleeding. However i think we are in broad agreement on the time period in which the attack took place, if not the actual time.

                  Footsteps?
                  If the killer heard those of Andrews approaching he may have moved carefully and made little noise, however if he took my option 2, then Andrews was concentrating on Jacobs and may have missed footsteps behind him.


                  Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                  As far as escaping into a house goes.



                  The houses the last line of the clip refers to are the back of the houses that front Newcastle Street. There really were no more houses in the alley at the time at that end. They were demolished and replaced by a high hoarding.
                  Still a possibility if more unlikely.

                  Steve

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Steve,

                    I agree on the Victorian timings but in this case we have PC Allen who had a watch and used the timing of the church clock to pinpoint our scenario a little better.

                    Let's use his timing of when he met Badham and work backwards from there.

                    Lloyd's Weekly
                    July 21, 1889

                    Inquest report

                    I then went toward Commercial Street and met Police Sergeant 31, Badham, who told me a murder had been committed in Castle Alley, and instructed me to go to the station for the Inspector and to call the doctor. It was five minutes to one o'clock as I passed the church on the way to the station.

                    The Standard
                    July 18, 1889


                    Then he walked slowly on into Wentworth Street. [illegible] he met Sergeant Badham, and spoke with him, the time exactly 12:55.

                    The Times, Thursday, July 18th, 1889
                    Inquest report

                    When the sergeant spoke to me it was five minutes to 1, and 1 o'clock when I got to the station

                    12:55 seems to be pretty accurate in this case. So, Badham meets Andrews at 12:48. Then you gave a total of 5-6 minutes for Andrews to find the body, question Jacobs, blow his whistle and return with Jacobs and Badham to the body. That puts us at 12:53/54. Then another minute for Badham to run to PC Allen is 12:55. Seems to fit fairly nicely.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      The Standard
                      July 18, 1889


                      One the east side, on one portion is a high dead wall; then a wooden paling about 7ft in height, enclosing the back yards of cottages facing to Newcastle Street.



                      PC George Neve (The Times, Thursday, July 18th, 1889)- I searched the conveyances in Castle Alley and looked over the hoarding, but could see no trace of any one about. I saw no one move and heard no sound.



                      No [illegible] than four constables had passed through the alley within ten minutes of the murder, and [illegible] was seen by them.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                        Steve,

                        I agree on the Victorian timings but in this case we have PC Allen who had a watch and used the timing of the church clock to pinpoint our scenario a little better.

                        Let's use his timing of when he met Badham and work backwards from there.

                        Lloyd's Weekly
                        July 21, 1889

                        Inquest report

                        I then went toward Commercial Street and met Police Sergeant 31, Badham, who told me a murder had been committed in Castle Alley, and instructed me to go to the station for the Inspector and to call the doctor. It was five minutes to one o'clock as I passed the church on the way to the station.

                        The Standard
                        July 18, 1889


                        Then he walked slowly on into Wentworth Street. [illegible] he met Sergeant Badham, and spoke with him, the time exactly 12:55.

                        The Times, Thursday, July 18th, 1889
                        Inquest report

                        When the sergeant spoke to me it was five minutes to 1, and 1 o'clock when I got to the station

                        12:55 seems to be pretty accurate in this case. So, Badham meets Andrews at 12:48. Then you gave a total of 5-6 minutes for Andrews to find the body, question Jacobs, blow whistle and return with Jacobs and Badham to the body. That puts us at 12:53/54. Then another minute for Badham to run to PC Allen is 12:55. Seems to fit fairly nicely.
                        Jerry

                        To issues, one is the 12.55 is based on a church clock which may or may not have been exact. However we have nothing to help with that and 12.55 could easily be 12.54 or 12.56.

                        The 12.48 timing ? How do we know this is synchronised to the church clock? we don't of course.

                        Maybe that shows why I dislike absolute times such as those above and it's why I prefer timings relative to events .

                        I think the conclusion I reach is the attack started no more than 7 minutes before Andrews, Jacobs and Badham describe the heavy bleeding.

                        Steve

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                          The Standard
                          July 18, 1889


                          One the east side, on one portion is a high dead wall; then a wooden paling about 7ft in height, enclosing the back yards of cottages facing to Newcastle Street.



                          PC George Neve (The Times, Thursday, July 18th, 1889)- I searched the conveyances in Castle Alley and looked over the hoarding, but could see no trace of any one about. I saw no one move and heard no sound.



                          No [illegible] than four constables had passed through the alley within ten minutes of the murder, and [illegible] was seen by them.
                          Jerry

                          All the above are very useful in constructing the full picture.

                          The fencing at 7ft is too high to climb over quickly and more important quietly.
                          One assumes there were no entrances in the fencing of course.

                          However on the western side as you have previously pointed out right by the body we have a shop, so exit by this cannot be eliminated.


                          The second item above shows some fencing can be easily looked over, I am not sure from the article where exactly this is located. Can you point it out to me please?

                          On the final point 4 officers in 10 minutes is not really an issue, the attack may have taken a little over a minute.

                          Steve

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Steve Blomer View Post
                            Jerry

                            All the above are very useful in constructing the full picture.

                            The fencing at 7ft is too high to climb over quickly and more important quietly.
                            One assumes there were no entrances in the fencing of course.

                            However on the western side as you have previously pointed out right by the body we have a shop, so exit by this cannot be eliminated.


                            The second item above shows some fencing can be easily looked over, I am not sure from the article where exactly this is located. Can you point it out to me please?

                            On the final point 4 officers in 10 minutes is not really an issue, the attack may have taken a little over a minute.

                            Steve
                            The hoarding is seen on the left. The view is looking toward Whitechapel Road. The murder scene was by the carts on the right.



                            "On the final point 4 officers in 10 minutes is not really an issue, the attack may have taken a little over a minute."

                            Steve, I doubt they all passed through at the same time. 4 officers passing through the alley in 10 minutes, at different times may not leave a whole lot of room. Alice and her killer had to get to the lamp somehow. How did they do it without passing any of these officers? Plus you had the fixed point man at the High Street end. PC Allen had JUST left the alley and was on Wentworth heading to Commercial Street. As he was leaving, Badham and Andrews were coming in. PC Allen never said he saw a body when he left the alley so chances are she wasn't murdered when he was in there.

                            Comment

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