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Joseph Martin + Dec. 23 1933

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  • Joseph Martin + Dec. 23 1933

    From 'The Times' of that date:


  • #2
    AP,

    Haven't you read Robert McLaughlin's book, The First Jack the Ripper Photographs? Talks all about this guy and others central to the early history of the photos. If you don't have it, you should get a copy.

    Yours truly,

    Tom Wescott

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm not sure if Bob's book is still available,Tom. It was a limited edition.

      Thanks a lot for the obit,A.P.
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      • #4
        Tom, as you know I only read The Times and nothing else so a lot of modern life escapes me. It is a fault I know.
        I think I've only got another 280 million entries to read and that'll be me done with The Times.
        My understanding was that there was still today some confusion about just who exactly took the photographs of the victims of the Whitechapel Murders... and this obit of Joseph Martin seems to conclusively show that it was Joseph Martin who was responsible.
        It would be interesting to see if said Joseph had any children, and then attempt to trace any material that might have been left to his family from his studio.
        There could be some big fish out there to fry.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by A.P. Wolf
          Tom, as you know I only read The Times and nothing else so a lot of modern life escapes me. It is a fault I know.
          I think I've only got another 280 million entries to read and that'll be me done with The Times.
          My understanding was that there was still today some confusion about just who exactly took the photographs of the victims of the Whitechapel Murders... and this obit of Joseph Martin seems to conclusively show that it was Joseph Martin who was responsible.
          It would be interesting to see if said Joseph had any children, and then attempt to trace any material that might have been left to his family from his studio.
          There could be some big fish out there to fry.
          Hi AP

          As I recall, the death notice for Joseph Martin was known while Viper was still alive and is already on the Casebook along with several other items about Martin. See

          http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../19331223.html

          Chris
          Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
          https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

          Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
          Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks Chris, of course you are right, but when I read through Viper's article I still sensed some confusion and I did wonder why?
            Anyone seen a Malay cook around here? I need a curry.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by A.P. Wolf
              Thanks Chris, of course you are right, but when I read through Viper's article I still sensed some confusion and I did wonder why?
              Anyone seen a Malay cook around here? I need a curry.
              Hi AP

              There is some confusion because as discussed by Bob McLaughlin on the Casebook boards in that, although the Tabram photograph has the stamp "Gumprecht" on the back of it, indicating that the photographer for the victim photographs might have been Joseph Gumprecht, Bob contends that Joseph Martin, who worked with Gumprecht, took the photographs before they went their separate ways.

              Chris
              Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
              https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

              Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
              Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

              Comment


              • #8
                The Freemason's comment:

                'Mortuary Photos

                Then a friend, Andy Aliffe, asked if I had any details of a photographer on my list called Joseph Martin, who was believed to have been the photographer who took the mortuary photographs of the Ripper victims. I could tell him that Martin had a shop at 186 Commercial Road from 1879 to 1880, and then at 11 Cannon Street Road from 1888 to 1894.
                It appears that he purchased the shop at 11 Cannon Street Road from a Louis Gumprecht. Gumprecht ran the shop from 1867 and seems to have been the police photographer for, on the back of his photographs, it reads: 'Photographs of the unknown dead, in districts where a skilled operator cannot be obtained, Louis Gumprecht, of 11 Cannon Street Road E, is willing to attend on a few hours' notice, on the same terms as Eastern Districts are served. Wire through H'.
                H was the district for the Whitechapel police - in fact the Metropolitan Police had no official photographers until 1901 - and only used approved freelance photographers. This I confirmed when I found an article in the Photographic News for 1878, where Gumprecht informs them of his services. It would appear that Joseph Martin was still using Gumprecht's mounts when he bought the business in 1887. '

                My thanks to them for the information.

                Comment


                • #9
                  These are the relevant entries from the London Directory for the names and years concerned. I still don't know where the confusion comes from?

                  Gumprecht, Louis
                  12 Cannon Street Road E.
                  1865-66
                  11 Cannon Street Road E.
                  1867-87

                  Martin & Sallnow
                  416 Strand W.C.
                  1885-08-
                  Martin, Mrs Emma
                  12 Grove Road, Bow E.
                  1900
                  Martin, Isaac
                  152 Cannon Street Road E.
                  1882-88
                  231 Commercial Road east E.
                  1882-84
                  Martin, Israel
                  245 Commercial Road east E.
                  1887-92
                  Martin, John
                  261 Commercial Road east E.
                  1893
                  245 Commercial Road east E.
                  1894-08-
                  Cambridge Road, Mile End
                  Martin, Joseph
                  186 Commercial Road east E.
                  1879-80
                  11 Cannon Street Road E.
                  1888-94
                  37 Norton Folgate N.E.
                  1893
                  14 West India Dock Road E.
                  1895-06
                  62 West India Dock Road E.
                  1907-08-
                  Martin, Miss Rita
                  74 Baker Street W.
                  1907-08-

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by How Brown
                    I'm not sure if Bob's book is still available,Tom. It was a limited edition.

                    Thanks a lot for the obit,A.P.
                    I'm sure it's not available new, but you can get it used. It's not cheap, but then AP's rich.

                    Yours truly,

                    Tom Wescott

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Relocated Posts

                      The trail of 'personal' posts that formerly followed Tom's post have been relocated to

                      http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=2726

                      which is in A.P. Wolf's personal forum. Since that forum was empty it seemed a good choice.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks Tim.

                        Back to J.Martin.

                        Hey ! Has anyone thought about getting Robert McLaughlin over to discuss this thread?
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                        • #13
                          Hi How, et al;

                          I finally caught up to this thread. I’ve been rather busy of late.

                          To understand why the stamp of Louis Gumprecht is on the back of Martha Tabram and Frances Coles’ mortuary photographs, when he didn’t take them, a few facts need to put forward.

                          George Ludwig Gumprecht was a mortuary photographer for twenty years prior to giving that up. He was born in Germany and anglicized his name to Louis not long after his arrival in England. He was also the publican at the Jolly Sailor on Cannon Street Road. He and his wife, Elizabeth ran the two businesses while raising a family. Elizabeth died on October 4, 1886, at the age of 37. Louis was 53 years old and now had several young children to care for on his own. The strain of two businesses was too much for him. In 1887 he sells his studio at 11 Cannon St. Rd. to Joseph Martin, and moves out to High Beech, in Epping Forrest, to run the King’s Oak.

                          Why doesn’t Joseph Martin put his own stamp on the back of his mortuary photographs? He was illiterate. If you read the long article about him before his death from the East London Advertiser: Saturday, 21 October 1933, you will see that young Joseph was mostly truant from school.
                          http://www.casebook.org/press_report...ela331021.html
                          When I found his marriage certificate, both he and his wife Sarah Spang, didn’t sign it. Their names had been signed by the clerk. The old address and information of Gumprecht’s was still valid, so Joe used it, probably until he moved to his studio to the West India Dock Road in 1894.

                          A.P. wrote: “It would be interesting to see if said Joseph had any children, and then attempt to trace any material that might have been left to his family from his studio.
                          There could be some big fish out there to fry.”

                          The Martin’s had one daughter. I’m still looking into this avenue and can say no more.

                          On the London Directory of Photographers, posted by A.P., Israel and John Martin are Joseph’s father and brother respectively (Isaac was his uncle), and worked together as Martin & Son at 245 Commercial Rd. I have many photographs taken by them. When Rob Clack found the photograph of Stephen White and posted it at the Casebook, everyone was pleased and congratulatory. I almost fell out of my chair. Martin & Son had taken the photograph. More specifically, John Martin had taken it. Israel Martin, the father, was dead by this time.

                          It’s quite probable that Joseph Martin’s police connections through his corpse photography sent some business his brother’s way. Martin & Son may have taken portraits of other policemen at the time. Dare we dream of Abberline? I'm still following this avenue of research.

                          More interesting still, was the fact that the Martin family was Jewish. The Metropolitan Police entrusted the work of Jew for almost half-a-century, and used Joseph’s skills during a very trying time, especially with rampant anti-Semitism, along with the strong anti-alienist movement of the 1880s.

                          The reason I believe Joseph Martin took the photographs of Mary Kelly at Millers Court are simple. The police had a horrific crime scene on their hands. They had no photographic department at the time (1901 is correct for the Met introducing one, 1939 for the City of London Police), so who could they trust? This wasn’t a job for a local portrait photographer, they needed a man with a strong stomach and nerves to match. They had one in Joseph Martin. They also had plenty of time to find him before the door was forced at 1;30pm. We had a crime scene that no one would forget and an overcast day in a dark court. This was the most difficult of situations, yet the photographer managed to produce at least two – and probably more – quality photos. For me, this made Martin’s reputation, and the Met kept using his services until they started a proper police laboratory, and for more than thirty years after.

                          Cheers,

                          Robert

                          p.s. Please don’t call me Bob - Mr. Hinton is a Bob – I’m Robert, or Rob. Thanks.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi Robert

                            Thank you so much for all this valuable information and explanations of why you think Joseph Martin was the photographer of the Whitechapel murder victims. You lay out a very strong argument that Joseph Martin was the photographer in Miller's Court. Excellent. I hope you are keeping well.

                            All the best

                            Chris
                            Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                            https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                            Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                            Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi Chris,

                              Not the greatest unfortunately. I may require neck surgery soon. It places my trip to Wolverhapton in serious doubt, but Judy may have talked me into Baltimore next year... health permitting.

                              I've just been catching up on your poetry thread. I quite enjoy your work. About a thousand years ago, I used to write and publish poetry myself. Loved the piece for Magpie

                              Just so everyone is clear. My research into the photographs continues. I have found some interesting things out since my book was published and I have some promising leads on more original information. A mainstream publisher wants to produce a second edition - in full colour no less! I just don't have enough new information to justify it right now. I'll be sure to keep everyone posted, though. I will eventually get that article to the Rip that I owe you guys too.

                              Take care, Chris, and I hope to see you in Baltimore. You can give me the 10 cent tour. Unfortunately, we only had the one brief chat in Brighton. Still, I'm glad I didn't miss you.

                              Looking forward to meeting you also, How. If you'll be back to Baltimore in 2008.

                              Cheers,

                              Robert

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