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19th Century Nervous Breakdown

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  • 19th Century Nervous Breakdown

    Thread for discussing the statements regarding a breakdown in health made by Inspector John Littechild and what it may mean in regard to what A.P.Wolf has called into question around the cybersphere on the WM Case.

    Thank You.

  • #2

    Does the fact that Littlechild stated that he had suffered a breakdown in health beginning in 1887....translate into Littlechild somehow being incompetent on the issue of facts relative to the WM ?


    • #3
      'It has. I regret to say that I broke down myself two years ago; my nervous system broke down. It is only in the last three or four months that I have been building myself up again. I went off in my health for 18 months.'

      Thanks How
      that was Littlechild's reply to a parliamentary question asked in late November 1889 about his health in 1888.
      Make no mistake, Littlechild was admitting to a very serious breakdown in his health, brought on by the strain of his work, and the results of that would, or could, lead to 'out of character' behaviour like the following:

      SAMPSON RICKAKD STUTTAFORD, Sexual Offences > indecent assault, 23rd April 1888.
      Reference Number: t18880423-501
      Offence: Sexual Offences > indecent assault
      Verdict: Guilty > pleaded guilty
      Punishment: Imprisonment > no_subcategory
      User Wiki: Corrections; Add Information
      See original

      501. SAMPSON RICKAKD STUTTAFORD (65) , PLEADED GUILTY to indecently assaulting Elizabeth Bessie Robertson, a girl under 13.
      He received an excellent character, and his medical attendant stated that he was suffering from overwork and sleeplessness, and that he had noticed a gradual decadence in his mental powers for two or three years, and had cautioned him that his brain and nervous system would break down if he did not rest from business pursuits.— Six Weeks' Imprisonment without Hard Labour ,

      Littlechild's judgement could not have been trusted throughout that Autumn of Terror.


      • #4
        Dear A.P.

        Welcome back old bean

        Now...despite the statement that Littlechild makes...and he indeed did say that about his does it affect his judgment in 1888 in regard to him stating that in the missive to Sims ( The Littlechild Letter ) in 1913 as Tumbelty being a "very likely(suspect) one..." when he had responded to Sims' letter and unseen but apparent question as to a "Dr. D." as a suspect in the WM?

        Back to you,A.P.


        • #5
          Dear A.P.

          A question to consider in the discussion:

          Why would the recall of Littlechild be in question 25 years ( almost 25 years from the date of the Double Event) after the fact in light of the following....

          Littlechild remembers Tumbelty's Marlborough Street court appearance ( which of course happened during the Autumn of Terror when he was as he stated he was suffering from a breakdown to his health). He remember's him jumping bail too. He even remembers where he was headed ( Boulogne).

          Littlechild remembers the contemporary opinion of Tumbelty's nature...again at the time of the WM.

          I fail to see...but hope very much you counter the above with your Littechild suffered or was debilitated AS much as you infer he was in 1888....because he sure isn't debilitated in 1913.

          Of course, one "error" would be that Littlechild stated that it was believed that Tumbelty committed suicide. That however may simply be a mix up of facts 25 years after the WM. That he DOES remember the two or three facts above about Tumbelty seem to offset that.
          Last edited by Howard Brown; April 20, 2009, 08:59 PM. Reason: edited because I made mistake of saying Marlyebone,not Marlborough Street


          • #6
            Glad to be back, How, somehow I deleted half of my original post, and that was the part where I was attempting to stress that Littlechild's answers to the parliamentary debate on police pensions would not have become a matter of public record at the time, so he was relatively safe to be free with the truth of the matter.
            As I've also said before, Littlechild was very particular about his accounts in his later years, no mistakes there, absolutely none, so we perhaps have to view his activities - and knowledge of events - in 1888 as an aberration... and this is where the house of cards falls down, for we talk of events that happened at a time in his life when he wasn't making mistakes or errors of judgement, but was rather master of the world he controlled.
            And trust me he would not have made an error in the timing of the Thaw case, some eight years later, for the Thaw case was still very much alive.
            This is ongoing so sometimes I don't have answers, but it is plain that after Littlechild's retirement he was reliant on Dew, and this could be where he was drawing his information from on the Tumblety case.
            I have found some more details on Littlechild's later work as a private detective, which shows his superb attention to detail, and I'll post them presently.


            • #7
              Bundle of vouchers etc. relating to the Druce cases; 1906-1909 DatesOfCreation1906-1909 Extent136 items ContentDescriptionPl L1/13/2/1: Analysis of expenditure [c.£18000] re Druce, Jan. 1906-Dec. 1908, including £2317 0s 6d fees to counsel, £177 7s 3d to Messrs Blake and Riggall (Australian agents), £566 4s 7d to Selden Bacon (New York agent), £163 14s 3d to Messrs J.C. White, solicitors, Belfast, £809 15s 10d (less £297 17/- from the Treasury) to Messrs Duncan, Cotterill and Stringer (New Zealand agents), £520 1s 8d for shorthand writers, £532 3s 7d to Mr J.G. Littlechild, private enquiry agent, £424 2s 6d fees in connection with the exhumation, £427 3s 2d to the Cemetery Company's solicitors, £123 7s 4d to the Metropolitan Police, and £481 4s 7d to the Highgate Cemetery Company, £462 10/- to T. Warner Turner and Richard Goulding for extra work, £1792 for charges of Messrs Freshfields, and £7624 15s 8d for charges of Messrs Baileys, Shaw and Gillett.

              L1/13/2/2-126: Alphabetical bills, bills of costs receipts (including various receipts for fees paid counsel), etc., with related correspondence. Divided Pl L1/13/2/2-33 = A to D (including Selden Bacon, Messrs Blake and Riggall, and Messrs Cherer, Bennett and Davis; Pl L1/13/2/34-59 = F to K (including Freshfields, and Messrs Duncan, Cotterill and Stringer's account with them); Pl L1/13/2/60-83 = L to M (including J.G. Littlechild, the Metropolitan Police and Messrs Moser); Pl L1/13/2/84-109 = N to R (including the Portland Estate Office for various estate workers and T. Warner Turner, Romeike and Curtice, Ltd, alias 'The Press Clipping Bureau' and Rowlatt's fees); Pl L1/13/2/110-126 = S to W (including Wace's fees).

              Pl L1/13/2/8 is Selden Bacon's bill of costs with covering letter explaining the methods of calculation of charges used in the United States and contrasting it with British practice. Pl L1/13/2/77 is a letter from Chief Inspector Dew at New Scotland Yard.

              Pl L1/13/2/127-130: Receipts from counsel for fees.

              Pl L1/13/2/131-132: Receipts for payments to witnesses examined de bene esse; and receipts of witnesses for expenses attending Mrs Hamilton's examination (paid by Littlechild).

              Pl L1/13/2/133-136: Receipts for payments made in connection with the evidence on behalf of the Defendants, and note of 'other payments'.


              • #8
                Thanks for the two follow ups,A.P.

       essence you are suggesting that Littlechild had referred to or called upon someone ( Walter Dew or someone else possibly ) for the information that he sent back to Sims in regard to the internal content of the Littlechild Letter...and suggesting that it was not his own memory that he relied on or at least not all of his own this correct,sor?


                • #9
                  How, sorry, mate, I couldn't help meself:

                  Youre the kind of person
                  You meet at certain dismal dull affairs.
                  Center of a crowd, talking much too loud
                  Running up and down the stairs.
                  Well, it seems to me that you have seen too much in too few years.
                  And though youve tried you just cant hide
                  Your eyes are edged with tears.

                  You better stop
                  Look around
                  Here it comes, here it comes, here it comes, here it comes
                  Here comes your LVP nervous breakdown.

                  When you were a child
                  You were treated blind
                  But you were never brought up right.
                  You were always spoiled with a thousand boys
                  But still you cried all night.
                  Your mother who neglected you
                  Owes a million Yankee dollars tax.
                  And your fathers still perfecting ways of making ceiling hats.

                  You better stop, look around
                  Here it comes, here it comes, here it comes, here it comes
                  Here comes your LVP nervous breakdown.

                  Oh, whose to blame, that girls just insane.
                  Well nothing I do dont seem to work,
                  It only seems to make matters worse. oh please.

                  You were still in the Yard
                  When you had things so hard
                  Who really messed your mind.
                  And after that you turned your back
                  On treating people kind.
                  On our first flip
                  I tried so hard to rearrange your body
                  But after awhile I realized you were disarranging my mind.

                  You better stop, look around
                  Here it comes, here it comes, here it comes, here it comes
                  Here comes your LVP nervous breakdown.
                  Here comes your LVP nervous breakdown
                  Here comes your LVP nervous breakdown


                  • #10
                    Glad you added that on,A.P.

                    We could all use a little lightening up in regard to this Littlechild letter content issue.

                    Just don't sing the damned thing though


                    • #11
                      Bump Up...

                      Dear A.P...... Is I correct or is I ain't in the previous post?


                      • #12
                        I can't say, How, yet.


                        • #13
                          Fair enough A.P....and thanks for responding. I went a'huntin' fer ye...and left a message on Casebook.

                          Permit me to ask this question then.

                          Am I correct in assuming you feel that Tumbelty may not have been or rather ,may not have been found, as Littlechild stated in the 1913 letter to Sims, within some files at Scotland Yard with any reference to him in said files in relation to the WM....and that if he was in any files at Scotland Yard, those files would be on something other ( Fenians) than the WM?

                          Back to you,old man.


                          • #14
                            I think, How, that this is something that is evolving as we speak.
                            The relationship between Littlechild and DS McIntyre needs to be explored, as does their facility for setting up 'stings' for visiting Americans to London and Liverpool.
                            I would have thought that Littlechild would have mentioned the Cream case in his 1913 letter, rather than the Thaw case.
                            And I'm presently trying to find out why DS McIntyre was more or less drummed out of the secret service after serving it so well.
                            I have filed scores of documents that need to be read, but I await some eyes to do so.


                            • #15
                              Hi AP,

                              McIntyre resigned after being caught fiddling a time sheet. He was demoted in September 1893 from First Class Sergeant to Constable and sent back to plod the beat in Kentish Town. All this happened on the eve of his promotion to Inspector.

                              His demotion was for 'making a false report of the date of his return to London from special duty'. His own version of events was that he had arrived back a day early, but did not report to Scotland Yard until the day he was expected.

                              There were rumours that this was not the real reason for his demotion. There were suspicions that he had entered into 'a liaison' with the daughter of an anarchist. McIntyre claimed that the story had been fed to Robert Anderson by, among others, Le Caron, with whom he had quarreled while he was his bodyguard.

                              McIntyre fainted one day while on the beat in Kentish Town and was given a month's sick leave. He returned to duty in October 1894, but insisted he was still not up to it. The surgeon ordered him back on duty, at which point McIntyre resigned and went to run a pub in Southwark.

                              There is more if you're interested.