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  • Charles Warren & A Secret Society

    Thread for discussing exactly who you feel Sir Charles was referring to when he posited the notion that a secret society was behind the murders.
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  • #2
    It's the dreaded Fenians again...

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    • #3
      Well it's not the Freemasons, because Sir Charles himself was a Freemason.
      That eliminates one.....

      Anarchists, perhaps?

      Cheers,
      Adam.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by How Brown View Post
        Thread for discussing exactly who you feel Sir Charles was referring to when he posited the notion that a secret society was behind the murders.
        Hi Howard

        Could you point me to a reference that discusses that Warren actually said or wrote this? I know it comes up in some of the movies on the case but we can't expect them to be accurate.

        Thanks

        Chris
        Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
        https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

        Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
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        • #5
          Answered my own query. I now realise it is to do with the French interview with Sir Charles Warren discussed in the French newspaper, La Presse, 8 October 1888 discussed in the thread "Warren's Toff-Theory" on Casebook: Jack the Ripper.

          Nothing to do with the Whitechapel murders but the following occurs in a work by Rudyard Kipling, and I post it here for fun and do not seriously think that Sir Charles was thinking of a secret society of Chinese as being behind the murders. Though we do know Malays were suspected. Hmmmm.

          ********************

          A Chinaman must have a secret society of some kind. He has been bred up in a country where they were necessary to his comfort, his protection, and the maintenance of his scale of wages from time immemorial, and he will carry them with him as he will carry his opium and his coffin.

          "Do you expect then that the societies will collapse by proclamation?" I asked the editor.

          "No. There will be a row."

          "What row? what sort of a row? "

          "More troops, perhaps, and perhaps some gunboats. You see, we shall have Sir Charles Warren then as our Commander-in-Chief at Singapur. Up till the present our military administration has been subordinate to that of Hong-Kong; when that is done away with and we have Sir Charles Warren, things will be different. But there will be a row. Neither you nor I nor any one else will be able to put these things down. Every joss house will be the head of a secret society. What can one do? In the past the Government made some use of them for the detection of crime. Now they are too big and too important to be treated in that way. You will know before long whether we have been able to suppress them. There will be a row."

          Excerpt from Rudyard Kipling, "From Sea to Sea", No. 4, in The Works of Rudyard Kipling, Volume 14, MacMillan and Co., 1899, p. 230.
          Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
          https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

          Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
          Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

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          • #6
            Chris:

            I used the official Home Office communication found in part here:

            No.A49301D/1
            Date 12 Oct 88
            Foreign Office
            References & c
            Whitechapel Murders

            .....As Mr.Matthews is aware I have for some time past inclined to the idea that the murders may possibly be done by a secret society,as the logical solution of the question, but I would not understand this being done by a Socialist because the last murders were obviously done by someone desiring to bring discredit on the Jews and Socialists or Jewish Socialists."
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            • #7
              Self explanatory...

              There are numerous references ( for those unaware ) of secret society in regard to the Fenians...who were pretty open,if you ask me.

              In any event...

              Birmingham Daily Post
              Wednesday, November 21, 1883

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              • #8
                The concept of a secret society being behind the WM didn't just come into Warren's head without good reason. I think it might be worthwhile to reexamine Warren's career for clues to his opinion on this.

                Here's why...and if anyone disagrees by all means speak up....

                1. Less Than Conspicuous Notoriety

                No secret society...if we included the Fenians, the fairly accessible Jewish socialists and less ostentatious (predominantly Jewish) anarchists...took credit for the crimes.

                Therefore, to me, it seems less likely that a secret society if Warren was referring to any of those cadres, would have committed the crimes for notoriety.

                2. Insinuation

                Could a counter-group, a group with the goal of casting aspersion or the public eye on any of the above have been behind the crimes....again, in the mind of Sir Charles Warren that is....?

                Very little in the way of an Irish connection to the murders ( save MJK )....but a definite Jewish connection.

                Your thoughts....
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                • #9
                  Could Warren have been referring to the Ochrana....the secret Czarist police organized in 1881 ?

                  In 1900, less than 12 years after the Double Event....the Ochrana was said to have had 100,000 people on its payroll....and numerous agents in European capitals as well.

                  Ironically, the activities of the Ochrana are claimed to have pushed many fencesitting Jews into the ranks of Marxists in Russia. The organization was said to have been particularly anti-Semitic.
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                  • #10
                    Could Warren have been referring to an Occult secret society ?
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                    • #11
                      Here's an example of how a murder can be used to incite violence against an entity already held in contempt.

                      Not that this is an example of a secret society....but how a murder committed by one "group" can be used against another based on smoldering tensions or disdain.

                      The Leeds Mercury
                      Monday, August 14, 1882

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                      • #12
                        Did Scientology exist in 1888?

                        Cheers,
                        Adam.

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                        • #13
                          No AW...that was the brainchild of a shifty Yank back in the late 1940's or early 1950's.
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                          • #14
                            Thanks How.
                            Good....so it wasn't the Freemasons and it wasn't Scientology.
                            Yep, I'm still thinking anarchists. Sir Charles had already had some pretty serious encounters with them and their like during his time as chief, remember....

                            Cheers,
                            Adam.

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                            • #15
                              AW:

                              I'm considering an agency working against socialism and Jews, myself,Adam. Here's an idea...I'm not promoting it,mind you....

                              What better way of attracting and providing negative attention to individuals already loathed on their own block ( the IWMEC) than by
                              acts such as the Stride murder?

                              I know the first response to that would be...."Well,why didn't these hypothetical assassins go there in the first place ? Why kill Nichols and Chapman ?"

                              Maybe they weren't set up in the city and took advantage of the Nichols & Chapman crime....

                              I wish others would pitch in with their ideas on what Warren meant by "secret society"......
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