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Jack the Ripper : The Macnaghten Memoranda

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  • Easiest of Targets

    Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View Post
    It still doesn’t make sense why they would target poor down and outs? Surely the obvious thing to do is target the rich. I think of the recent India atrocity where a bunch of gunmen went on the rampage just shooting whoever they saw at random.
    These women were specifically chosen. Why?
    ...
    Because they were the easiest of targets, and were readily available on the streets with the least chance of being caught when targeting them.

    Comment


    • Hi Jeff,

      You're obviously having another Dan Norder moment.

      But never fear. A cure is nigh. Take a deep breath and repeat after me—

      "Just like the Bogeyman, Jack did not, does not, and never will exist."

      Sleep well. Dream coloured dreams.

      Regards,

      Simon

      Comment


      • Questions re: The Fenian Theory

        I have a few questions regarding this 'Fenian Theory' that perhaps Simon and Stewart could address... but of course, Jeff & everybody else are also very welcome to address them if they wish.

        > What did the Fenians actually GAIN from the Ripper killings?

        Their inability to catch the Ripper embarrassed the Govt., but I don't see how this fact materially helped the Fenians.

        >Didn't the Ripper killings actually push other news stories and social concerns, such as
        the Fenian cause & all other Irish matters, right off the front page and out of the public's consciousness?


        I think that's the OPPOSITE of what "terrorist" acts are supposed to achieve...
        They aim for MORE coverage, credit and exposure, not less.

        >Why the extremely grotesque sexual mutilations and trophy-taking?

        Surely this was over the top, and only increased the risk of the 'agent' being caught, seeing as most of the murders were done in the street... That doesn't seem very smart to me.

        > In particular, why take Mary Kelly completely apart and destroy her face, and why choose an Irish victim when there are plenty of others- English & other nationalities- to choose from?


        >Think what the Fenians would stand to LOSE if it ever leaked out that they were actually behind the Ripper Murders!

        Ireland is a Catholic country; I don't think the Irish people would EVER condone the Whitechapel Murders being committed in their name.
        And it would lose the Fenians the crucial support of Irish-Americans too.
        In fact, it would destroy their cause; I don't see how they could ever live it down.


        > Supposing the Whitechapel Murders were a deliberate act of the Fenians... wouldn't it have been smarter and much more politically effective to kill Irish whores in Ireland, but to do it in a way that framed English soldiers, policemen, or officials for their deaths???


        Thanks, everyone; much appreciated.

        Comment


        • Hi Archy,

          You obviously don't know much about the dynamics of politics.

          Regards,

          Simon
          Last edited by Simon Wood; October 2, 2009, 04:12 PM. Reason: clarity

          Comment


          • Hello, Simon.

            Is that actually your answer to my questions?


            How interesting.

            Comment


            • Hi Archy,

              In all innocence I have to answer, "Yes it is."

              Why? What else ya got?

              Regards,

              Simon

              Comment


              • Hi Stewart

                Agreed that they were easy targets but not the only easy targets in London. A terrorist network would spread its wings far wider than a few square miles in the Eastend. Prostitutes were commonplace. Besides to a terrorist a lady would have been worth the risk, think of the extra prestige and press coverage.

                Hi Simon

                Can we drop the Norder Crack’s do I sound like I’ve had a sense of humour bye pass?

                Of course the ‘Jack never existed’ mantra has become as fashionable, (ala Andrew Cook) as indeed has the ‘Unknown local man’ cliché. However the bodies of six women, murdered in a short space of time in similar fashion is undeniable. And where as I can sight other cases, the Yorkshire Ripper the Hammersmith Nude murders etc. You seem rather reticent to name other examples where terrorist organizations have murdered groups of women to create publicity for their cause…

                And lets face it the policemen who were there and investigated the crimes, all by and large believed a single maniac was responsible, even if some disagreed on the identity of that maniac.

                Isn’t what you are asking me to consider another flash in the pan trendy ‘rippo’ piece of extreme theorizing? I look for simplicity and the most straightforward and simple answer.

                Take a good hard long look at the photo of Mary Kelly. It is possibly the most horrendous image one might ever consider. This was not committed by a terrorist, a copycat, or a bogyman. It was perpetrated by a very sick and disturbed human being. Who was sadly probably suffering from severe mental illness?

                Pirate

                Comment


                • Archaic:

                  Don't forget that Mary Kelly had at least an Irish name and was probably Irish by ethnicity. Hard to understand how killing Irish women helps Irish causes.

                  Nice list by the way on your part.
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                  Comment


                  • Hi Jeff,

                    If you hate the Norder cracks so much then stop sounding like him.

                    You wrote–

                    "Isn’t what you are asking me to consider another flash in the pan trendy ‘rippo’ piece of extreme theorizing? I look for simplicity and the most straightforward and simple answer."

                    Give me an English translation of what you're trying to say and I'll respond with an appropriately polite and intelligent answer.

                    Until then . . .

                    Regards,

                    Simon

                    Comment


                    • Right so first I have Stewart Evans claiming I’m Paul Begg amd now Simon Wood claiming I’m actually Dan Norder? I mean go figure what does it take to be a Pirate around here! Afer all I have my own cutless and nearly got in at Hendon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2PyeXRwhCE

                      Thank god Archaic has her head screwed on. Please Simon can you explain what the fenians would have gained from murdering bag ladies?

                      Pirate

                      PS Does being D.N. mean I can beat up on Neal Sheldon at conference and drink all his beer?

                      PS PS Sorry Jon

                      PS PS PS having given it some thought I have decided to change my handle to 'SPARTICUS'

                      Comment


                      • Gents,

                        Can anyone comparing other posters to Dan Norder please stop because of the other connotations it may bring and irrelevency to the discussion.

                        Thanks.
                        Jon

                        "It is far more comfortable to point a finger and declare someone a devil, than to call upon your imagination to try to understand their world."


                        http://www.jlrees.co.uk



                        Comment


                        • The Irish Cause

                          Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                          Hi Archy,

                          You obviously don't know much about the dynamics of politics.

                          Regards,

                          Simon

                          You're certainly entitled to your opinion, Simon.

                          However, since you seem to believe I know nothing of Irish politics, I think I might as well state that my great-great-great-great-great Grandfather was a rather famous Irish patriot and soldier by the name of Sir Gerard Lally. He was one of the Irish Catholic rebels known as the 'Wild Geese' who were forced to flee to France. He entered the service of the French King and was rewarded with a Baronetcy for his military contributions.

                          Sir Gerard Lally was the Commander of the famed Dillon Regiment of the Irish Brigade and rose to the rank of Brigadier General.

                          His son was Thomas Arthur Lally, Baron de Tolendal and Count Lally.

                          Thomas Lally is regarded as one of the principal heroes of the famous Battle of Fontenoy...
                          A battle which, as you know, Dr. Tumblety liked to brag about as epitomizing Irish Patriotism.

                          Count Lally's name is inscribed upon the Arc de Triomphe in Paris, which is one of the greatest honors France can bestow upon a soldier.

                          Both father and son are still viewed as great Irish patriots and heroes, and Count Lally is honored as a "Martyr"
                          to the Irish Catholic cause. The Fenians you are discussing in your Ripper scenarios would certainly have known of and admired them.

                          So, you see, but I do know something about the politics and history of the Irish Cause... my family lived it
                          for many generations.

                          And they lived it honorably; they would never have condoned slaughtering and mutilating helpless women for some very ill-defined goal like "political embarrassment".


                          I feel that all my questions regarding the Ripper/Fenian theory were perfectly straightforward and sensible,
                          so I find it surprising that you think they aren't worth addressing.

                          But that's fine, perhaps someone else will come along who can answer them.

                          Comment


                          • Impressive post and thanks for sharing that with us Archaic.

                            Sure seems like you know your political histories.
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                            Comment


                            • Hi Archy,

                              Well, who'da known? You certainly kept that one under your hat. I can't argue with your family history.

                              Regards,

                              Simon

                              Comment


                              • Devil's Advocate

                                Originally posted by Archaic View Post
                                I have a few questions regarding this 'Fenian Theory' that perhaps Simon and Stewart could address... but of course, Jeff & everybody else are also very welcome to address them if they wish.
                                > What did the Fenians actually GAIN from the Ripper killings?
                                Their inability to catch the Ripper embarrassed the Govt., but I don't see how this fact materially helped the Fenians.
                                ...
                                I thought that I had already stated that I am not a 'conspiracy theorist', and that my role here has been more as 'devil's advocate', addressing some of the questions raised.

                                The point is to look at the solution raised, as seen by Warren, viz. 'that it is done by a renegade socialist [not specifically Fenian] to bring discredit on his former comrades' (emphasis Warren's). Now this doesn't mean I support this theory, nor does it mean that I am advocating it, I am merely stating how Warren understood it.

                                However, as I have shown, there most definitely was a contemporary allusion to an involvement of the Irish party and that is a fact. So, like it or not, it is an aspect that is valid and should be addressed.

                                Comment

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