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Jack the Ripper : The Macnaghten Memoranda

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  • #31
    Hoping

    Originally posted by A.P. Wolf View Post
    Don't be confused, Robert, for your confusion just blasted Macnaghten's disinformation out of the water.
    'ave a whisky dear chap.
    I was rather hoping that you would remain rational AP but I can see that this particular bee is not going to escape from your bonnet. I see no point in debating with you.

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    • #32
      "It was found impossible to ascertain his [THC's] movements on the nights of the Whitechapel murders."

      If the "sensational story" told in the Sun was baseless and THC was nothing but a simple lunatic arraigned for malicious wounding in April 1891, why almost three years after the event had the police tried to "ascertain his movements on the nights of the Whitechapel murders"?

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      • #33
        Dear Stewart:

        Considering that Macnaghten wrote down some erroneous information regarding Druitt ( I will leave Kosminski & Ostrog out of this for the moment ), is it possible to you that the information on Druitt was not something that he was responsible for since most people seem to think that Macnaghten is responsible for the erroneous information?

        This is just one of the things that I have had on my mind when I read about the MM and was wondering that since you believe ( as I do now ) that it is likely that Macnaghten was( selected, chosen, give it a name) responsible for following through with the report from higher ups in the chain of command that the information ( possibly from MP Farquarshon,as Andrew Spallek discussed and hinted at on the Rippercast program and on message boards,as well as in Ripperologist Magazine ) on Druitt...at least...did not necessarily come from him.

        Who else can you think of as a source for the Druitt Information ?

        Thank You.
        To Join JTR Forums :
        Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

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        • #34
          Quick-drying cement?

          Originally posted by SPE View Post
          In Days of My Years, (London, Edward Arnold, 1914) Macnaghten does not say that the offender was identified. He merely states that 'the Whitechapel murderer, in all probability, put an end to himself after the Dorset Street affair in November 1888...' [i.e. Druitt]. His idea as to the Ripper's probable identity appear to have hardened over the years into this opinion stated in 1914.
          The "concrete" of Macnaghten's idea seems to have been part-hardened in the original report, which you've already quoted: "A much more rational theory is that the murderer's brain gave way... and that he immediately committed suicide".

          I see in this a subtext along the lines of "I [Macnaghten] am the epitome of rational thinking, therefore a much more rational theory is...".

          Is it perhaps less the "rationality" of the idea, than that MM was promoting his own brilliance at having identified the probable murderer, and that he'd allowed his opinion to start to solidify no later than February 1894? The fact that he offers a second-best option (confinement in an asylum) may be little more than a half-hearted gesture on his part, to convey at least a token of objectivity.

          To that extent, perhaps the "Memorandum" set another precedent in Ripperology.

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          • #35
            SPE, if you think my posts are stifling debate rather than encouraging it, I should be quite happy to disengage from this thread.

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            • #36
              Not At All

              Originally posted by A.P. Wolf View Post
              SPE, if you think my posts are stifling debate rather than encouraging it, I should be quite happy to disengage from this thread.
              Not at all AP, I am sure that your input would be sorely missed. But I shan't be responding to it, unless it's sensible of course.

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              • #37
                Hi Stewart

                I have long thought that the different police writings that have come down to us are inadequate and flawed, and that includes Macnaghten, Anderson, Griffiths, Littlechild, Smith, Abberline, on and on. One of the main problems is that we are only getting part of the picture. The bottom line is that there is no solution to the case, and each participant is only saying what they knew.

                As you have validly pointed out, the Macnaghten report aka memoranda was only written as an internal police report and modern writers are apt to read too much into it. Cutbush advocates are apt to use it to promote their candidate but that is partly because of the possibly flawed idea that Thomas Hayne Cutbush was a nephew of the former superintendent.

                If there was not such a relationship or some other connection between the suspect and the former Met official, the theory collapses. Yes, as AP I believe has conjectured, there could have been some type of monetary or illegitimate connection between the two. But that is mere hypothesis, too insubstantial to support a meaningful theory without evidence that the connection existed.

                Chris
                Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

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                • #38
                  Hi Chris

                  I don't believe that the Cutbush theory stands or falls with the uncle-nephew relationship. That aside, I think the Macnaghten memorandum or report presents major problems to any researcher, because it is such a dog's dinner. One is tempted to pick the bits one likes and put the rest down to faulty memory and so on. Nothing is ever simple in Ripperworld.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                    Hi Chris

                    I don't believe that the Cutbush theory stands or falls with the uncle-nephew relationship. That aside, I think the Macnaghten memorandum or report presents major problems to any researcher, because it is such a dog's dinner. One is tempted to pick the bits one likes and put the rest down to faulty memory and so on. Nothing is ever simple in Ripperworld.
                    Hi Robert

                    Yes I agree that to some extent a theory about Cutbush does not entirely stand or fall with the uncle-nephew relationship. However, you cannot deny that it is lent extra power or frisson by the suspicion that the Memorandum was written to deflect attention from the supposed relationship. That is what AP has been hammering on about here. For months.

                    Chris
                    Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                    https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                    Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                    Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Hi Chris

                      Yes, granted, and for AP's comfort I think we can more or less say that any deductions as to cover-ups etc will be independent of whether there was a close relationship or whether there wasn't, for Macnaghten's belief in such a relationship is all that's required for those theories - that, and the proviso that Macnaghten's superiors didn't know differently (and I suspect they hadn't the foggiest).

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                      • #41
                        Sorry to deviate here again, but Stewart, would you guess that Bradford shared Anderson's belief in the Polish Jew suspect?

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                          Hi Chris

                          Yes, granted, and for AP's comfort I think we can more or less say that any deductions as to cover-ups etc will be independent of whether there was a close relationship or whether there wasn't, for Macnaghten's belief in such a relationship is all that's required for those theories - that, and the proviso that Macnaghten's superiors didn't know differently (and I suspect they hadn't the foggiest).
                          A conspiracy theory though usually depends on the idea that there is an all-knowing intelligence behind the whole scheme. An organized attempt to cover up either the murders or, in this case, Cutbush being Jack, would depend on exact knowledge of the relationship between the elder and younger Cutbush, I should suspect.

                          Chris
                          Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                          https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                          Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                          Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Hi Chris

                            Well, I'll let AP handle the conspiracy side - except to say, that the British (as you'll know) organize their conspiracies the same way they organize everything else - on a muddle through basis.

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                            • #44
                              Bradford

                              Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
                              Sorry to deviate here again, but Stewart, would you guess that Bradford shared Anderson's belief in the Polish Jew suspect?
                              Hi Scott, I have no idea what Bradford's belief was regarding a suspect for the Ripper murders. I would assume that he discussed it with Anderson but we have no known record of what he may have thought. Ruggles-Brise of the Home Office said of Bradford, "He had the gift of humility."

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                              • #45
                                Stewart, just a quick question : do you know of a Sir Edward Blackall of Scotland Yard? He was mentioned by Cutbush in Broadmoor, but I think he meant Sir Edward Bradford.

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