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Jack the Ripper : The Macnaghten Memoranda

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  • Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
    Plot implies structure. And the one thing the Whitechapel Murders lacked was structure.
    Extremely well put, Simon.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
      It's also interesting that the two pivotal C5 murders—Eddowes and Kelly—were taken out of Wynne Baxter's control. The locations of Mitre Square and Millers Court were chosen very carefully.

      Read the rules.

      Regards,

      Simon
      Interesting point. Do tell more if you care to, here or on another thread.

      Comment


      • Dear Simon:

        At some point, it might be worth bringing up the newspaper article you found and mentioned in a Ripperologist article a few years back about the Irish police officials taken to Millers Court. I mention this because I wonder if you ever pursued that newspaper article to determine what the two ( if I remember correctly) officials were brought there for.
        To Join JTR Forums :
        Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

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        • Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post

          What also rules out any Fenian connection in the Whitechapel Murders are the unprecedented levels of official assistance given to promulgate the mythos. I'm thinking specifically of the frankly moronic decision to plaster Dear Boss and Saucy Jacky across London on posters [when exactly was it decided they were the work of an enterprising journalist?] and also Wynne Baxter's grandstanding inquests whose adjournments kept the momentum going long after the murders' best-by date.
          Hi Simon

          The fact that the police printed posters with facsimiles of the Dear Boss letter and Saucy Jack postcard is proof positive that they initially believed the communications were from killer.... why else ask people if they recognized the writing? What, to catch a hoaxing journalist? I don't think so. No, the idea that they had been "had" only dawned on them later. Too late.

          It's a shame that other revelations did not dawn on them earlier, too. Like the fact that the killer might not necessarily be a out-and-out madman. But they were mired in that old-fashioned thinking that the killer had to be a lunatic.

          Of course, the Whitechapel murderer could have been and most probably was mentally disturbed, but, consistent with our modern-day concept of serial killers, after multiple examples have been studied, he might not have appeared crazy on the outside. The police of 1888 just didn't "get" what a serial killer was all about. Prepare the time machine, Watson.

          Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
          It's also interesting that the two pivotal C5 murders—Eddowes and Kelly—were taken out of Wynne Baxter's control. The locations of Mitre Square and Millers Court were chosen very carefully.
          Wynne Baxter shot off his mouth, and so it would seem the Eddowes and Kelly inquests were taken away from him for that reason.

          Chris
          Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
          https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

          Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
          Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

          Comment


          • Index

            Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post
            I realize that you can't elaborate, SPE, and therefore I'm saying it more for others to address than yourself.
            I have always wondered if the JtR murders were not in fact a Fenian "terrorist" attack, a low cost, high profile way to show the poor that the authorities could care less if they were all butchered. (FWIW, I think the powers that be cared quite a bit, but it's appearance that matters.)
            Well, as you can see in this index (top entry) for one reference to an Irish/Whitechapel murders connection - something certainly did exist.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Chris G. View Post
              Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
              It's also interesting that the two pivotal C5 murders—Eddowes and Kelly—were taken out of Wynne Baxter's control. The locations of Mitre Square and Millers Court were chosen very carefully.
              Wynne Baxter shot off his mouth, and so it would seem the Eddowes and Kelly inquests were taken away from him for that reason.
              Eddowes's body was discovered in Mitre Square, Parish of St. James, Aldgate Ward, City of London. It was accordingly removed to the City of London Mortuary, Golden Lane, Parish of St. Giles without Cripplegate, Cripplegate Ward Without, City of London.

              Her corpse was discovered within the City of London; and it consequently remained therein, throughout the conduct of the corresponding inquest. Baxter had no more jurisdiction over this particular matter, than did Dr. Robert Anderson, over the ensuing murder investigation.

              Kelly's body was discovered in Miller's Court, Dorset Street, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields, County of Middlesex. It was accordingly removed to the Parish Mortuary of St. Leonard Shoreditch, on the grounds of the Parish Church of St. Leonard Shoreditch, County of Middlesex.

              Her corpse was discovered within the North-East District of the Middlesex County Coronership*; and it consequently remained therein, throughout the conduct of the corresponding inquest. Baxter had no more jurisdiction over this particular matter, than did Maj. Henry Smith, over the ensuing murder investigation.

              * An Order in Council of May 1888, interestingly - and quite inexplicably - placed the Liberty of Norton Folgate and Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields in the newly established North-East District of the Middlesex County Coronership (i.e. MacDonald's District).

              "Inexplicably", and indeed impracticably; as the two parochial entities were both components of the Whitechapel District of the Metropolitan Board of Works, …

              - The Liberty of Norton Folgate
              - The Old Artillery Ground (a component of the Ancient Coronership of the Tower of London)
              - The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
              - The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
              - The Parish of Holy Trinity ('Minories') (a component of the Ancient Coronership of the Tower of London)
              - The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (portion within the County of Middlesex, -1889 / County of London, 1889-1965)
              - The Liberty of Her Majesty's Tower of London (a component of its own Ancient Coronership)
              --- The Liberty of the Tower
              --- The Precinct of Old Tower Without
              --- The Tower
              - The Precinct of St. Katharine
              - The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (portion within the County of Middlesex, -1889 / County of London, 1889-1965)

              … which bore the responsibilities of mortuary-accommodation and subsequent burial of its deceased residents, as well as that of any unidentified decedents found within its boundaries. As Norton Folgate and Spitalfields were the only components of this particular District of the Metropolitan Board of Works to fall under the coronial jurisdiction of Roderick MacDonald; any deaths occurring therein, for which inquest proceedings were deemed necessary, inherently became the burden of either the Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch* or the Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green*.

              * The choice depending, I suppose, on the side of bed, from which MacDonald rose, on a given date of death/discovery. As each of these parochial entities was a separate component of the Metropolitan Board of Works, in itself - thus having its own mortuary; and as each was a component of MacDonald's North-East Middlesex Coronership - but having its mortuary in relatively close proximity to both Norton Folgate and Spitalfields; the choice really could have depended on the toss of a coin.

              "Hmmm …, with which parish shall I saddle the burden today? … Shoreditch or Bethnal Green? I've got to exercise my authority here, and make damned sure that the body remains within my jurisdiction. Otherwise the local constabulary will do the sensible thing, and remove it to the mortuary belonging to the Whitechapel Union Infirmary. And why shouldn't they? After all, Spitalfields is part of the Whitechapel District of the Metropolitan Board of Works; and it is the Whitechapel District, therefore, that should bear the burden of mortuary-accommodation, subsequent burial, and provision of inquest jury. But then; … Baxter would have jurisdiction! …Hmmm."

              Of course, if MacDonald had never shown up at Miller's Court, on that fateful day, wielding the authority that was in fact, … his to wield; Kelly's remains would almost invariably have ended up at the mortuary facility in Eagle Place, Old Montague Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town (i.e. the Whitechapel Union Infirmary Mortuary). In this event, the inquest would have been all Baxter's; just as it was, in the case of Annie Chapman.

              Or, if MacDonald had completed his inquest, only to then see the Parish Vestry of St. Leonard Shoreditch defiantly return the remains of Mary Jane Kelly to their rightful 'owner', i.e. the Whitechapel District of the Metropolitan Board of Works; the remains would then have ended up at the mortuary facility in Eagle Place, Old Montague Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town (i.e. the Whitechapel Union Infirmary Mortuary). In this event, there would have been a second inquest; and it would have been all Baxter's.

              Comment


              • Of course there was a Fenian connection, in as far as the government were seeking to discredit Parnell.

                They worked on a tried and tested theory, that ‘if you sling enough muck’, hopefully some of it will stick.

                However the whitechappel murders (or at least six of them) were commented by someone suffering a severe mental psychosis. While Chris G is correct that this was a phenomena not understood at the time, it is still an area experts are trying to grapple with today, as almost every case is unique. There are no straight lines in neurological malfunction.

                In order to except a genuine Fenian connection one must step into the world of ‘conspiracy theories’ and we know how often they hold any genuine water?

                I can just here my Nan’s voice laughing in the back of my head.

                Indeed, one cant help consider that if Anderson had genuinely wanted to invent a story this ‘conspiracy theory’ might have been the one for him to invent.

                Pirate

                Comment


                • Another Thing

                  Another thing that is of interest with regard to theories of senior policemen is the fact that in October 1888 Warren revealed that he had for some time been "inclined to the view that the murders may possibly be done by a secret society..."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Chris G. View Post
                    The fact that the police printed posters with facsimiles of the Dear Boss letter and Saucy Jack postcard is proof positive that they initially believed the communications were from killer.... why else ask people if they recognized the writing? What, to catch a hoaxing journalist? I don't think so. No, the idea that they had been "had" only dawned on them later. Too late.
                    Hi Chris,

                    That's not what I gathered from Stewart and Keith's Letters from Hell.

                    And 'too late' for what?

                    I understood that the facsimiles were made and published more on the off-chance that someone would recognise the writing and it might just lead to the killer. They did think at the time that this could all be a sick joke, but they didn't want to take the risk that it wasn't. It was a potential clue after all. If the publicity had led instead to a sick hoaxer, it would still have been better than nothing and they could have made an example of the culprit, who could have lost their livelihood at the very least.

                    But in the end the 'idea' that the author was a hoaxing journalist was still only an idea and remains so, unless proof emerges to identify the culprit(s) beyond reasonable doubt.

                    We may think we've resolved some of these minor puzzles from way back when, but we still lack the information to be absolutely sure.

                    Love,

                    Caz
                    X
                    I wish I were two puppies then I could play together - Storm Petersen

                    Comment


                    • Was it not Sir Charles Warren that had a history with secret societies?

                      Did he not go in search of the Holly Grail and follow the Knights Templar forgotten tunnels beneath Jerusalem?

                      Bit of a ‘Daring Do’ in his youth.

                      I notice he also has trouble with ‘The’. And I cant make out the last two words?

                      “But I would not understand ???? ???? “

                      Pirate

                      Comment


                      • Hoax

                        Originally posted by Chris G. View Post
                        ...
                        The fact that the police printed posters with facsimiles of the Dear Boss letter and Saucy Jack postcard is proof positive that they initially believed the communications were from killer.... why else ask people if they recognized the writing? What, to catch a hoaxing journalist? I don't think so. No, the idea that they had been "had" only dawned on them later. Too late.
                        ...
                        Chris
                        Writing to Lushington at the Home Office about the 'Jack the Ripper' correspondence, on 10 October 1888, Warren stated -

                        "At present I think the whole thing is a hoax but of course we are bound to try & ascertain the writer in any case." (Ref- National Archives, Commissioner's letters file, MEPO 1/48).

                        Comment


                        • Hi Howard,

                          This is the newspaper article you asked about.

                          DAILY NEWS, 13th November 1888—

                          "Throughout the day a large crowd loitered about Dorset-street. The visitors were not confined to the poorer classes, for besides two officials of the Royal Irish Constabulary and two or three members of Parliament, a prominent Post Office official inspected the scene of the murder."

                          And here's another from the previous month.

                          EVENING NEWS 9th October 1888—

                          DETECTIVES REINFORCED FROM DUBLIN.
                          "The correspondent of the Irish Times states that a number of Irish constables have been withdrawn from Dublin for special duty in connection with the Whitechapel murders."

                          So, putting these reports together with Macnaghten's remark about Balfour and the crime sheet kindly posted by Stewart, there is prima facie evidence which goes against my feelings that there was no Fenian involvement in the WM. But while I still don't believe the Fenians went on a Whitechapel murder spree in such a haphazard fashion, there is a possible angle we've missed that might account for such involvement.

                          Let's forget about serial killers, turn the WM on its head and ask ourselves a question—

                          What if the murders of the C5 were not the object of the exercise? What if their deaths were a by-product of something much bigger?

                          Regards,

                          Simon

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SPE View Post
                            Writing to Lushington at the Home Office about the 'Jack the Ripper' correspondence, on 10 October 1888, Warren stated -

                            "At present I think the whole thing is a hoax but of course we are bound to try & ascertain the writer in any case." (Ref- National Archives, Commissioner's letters file, MEPO 1/48).
                            Thanks, Stewart.

                            Chris
                            Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                            https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                            Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                            Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

                            Comment


                            • Hi All,

                              9th October 1888, Sir Charles Warren to C.B. Stuart-Wortley [Under-Secretary, Home Office]—

                              " . . . I have today received a letter from a person asserting himself to be an accomplice, and asking for a free pardon; and I am commencing a communication with him through an advertisement in a journal. This letter is probably a hoax, for we have received scores of hoaxing letters, but on the other hand it may be a bona fide letter, and if so feel what a very great loss it would be to the discovery of the murderer by omitting to offer the pardon; and I cannot see what harm could be done in this or any future case by offering a pardon."

                              10th October 1888, Sir Charles Warren to Godfrey Lushington [Permanent Under Secretary, Home Office]—

                              "Thanks for the memo of Mr Troup [Home Office]. We will look into the matter at once. It is a difficult matter. I do not know if the P.O. can tell in what letters boxes the letter of Jack the Ripper is posted.

                              "At present I think the whole thing is a hoax but of course we are bound to try & ascertain the writer in any case . . ."

                              The Times, 20th October 1888—

                              " . . . Last night, when the policemen on night duty were drawn up in their respective station-yards, preparatory to going on their beats, the last letter sent by "Jack the Ripper" was read over to them. It was pointed out that the writer intimated his intention of committing further murders last night, and the necessity for special vigilance was impressed upon the police."

                              Go figure.

                              Regards,

                              Simon
                              Last edited by Simon Wood; September 30, 2009, 04:54 PM. Reason: spolling

                              Comment


                              • I’m sorry Simon

                                But I simply do not follow your logic.

                                If you are suggesting that the White Chapel murders were linked to terrorist activity, surely somewhere in the historical record you could demonstrate where other terrorists, for what ever reason, had pretended to be serial killers.

                                Or gone out and cut up innocent women on the street?

                                However there are none. They blow things up!

                                Terrorists tend, on the whole, to commit the most atrocious acts of violence to maximize publicity. Surly they have a basic urge to communicate a MESSAGE, not to stay hidden or mysterious.

                                There is simply NO logic to a conspiracy theory behind the whitechappel murders.

                                They were almost certainly committed by more than one person, and the majority (probably six as Anderson suspected) committed by someone with a severe mental problem.

                                All the best

                                Pirate

                                Comment

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