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Jack the Ripper : The Macnaghten Memoranda

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  • Jeff:

    Its not necessary for a precedent involving serial murder & conspiracy for the Whitechapel Murders to have been a conspiracy.

    There's a first time for everything in crime...

    You mention:

    "There is simply NO logic to a conspiracy theory behind the whitechappel murders.

    They were almost certainly committed by more than one person, and the majority (probably six as Anderson suspected) committed by someone with a severe mental problem.


    Despite your trying to prove the contrary, any murder involving more than one person is, by definition, a conspiracy.
    To Join JTR Forums :
    Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

    Comment


    • Hi Jeff,

      Take off your blinkers and open yourself up to new possibilities, because the tired old knuckle-dragging serial killer suffering from lustmord rift is a needle stuck in a groove which is as tired and tedious as yesterday's cold mashed potatoes. God, you sound like Dan Norder at times. If you had read my post carefully you would have discovered that I do not believe Fenians went on a haphazard murder rampage in Whitechapel. I said that a few barrels of dynamite would have been much more expeditious.

      I also suggested that there is a possibility something bigger was going on, and that the C5 were merely collateral damage.

      Think about it. Possibly—just possibly—the WM had a different shape to the one we've been fed over the past 121 years.

      Contrary to your beliefs conspiracies do work. And they work purely because ordinary hard-working, tax-paying dummies like you and me cannot bring ourselves to believe that they do work. I don't know how old you are, but in my sixty-five year lifetime I can recall at least three conspiracies which worked supremely well. And people still don't believe they were conspiracies. About three years ago I had a brief meeting with some very interesting people and know this stuff is true.

      So I say to you again—take off your blinkers, stop believing all the inaccuracies [most of them published] you've been fed by various parties over the years and start thinking clearly. Just because it's written down in black and white doesn't necessarily mean it's true.

      "Things are seldom as they seem; skim milk masquerades as cream." Gilbert & Sullivan.

      Send me a PM if you're genuinely interested in the ultimate JtR documentary. All the existing ones are shit.

      Regards,

      Simon

      Comment


      • JTROFS

        Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
        ...
        I don't know how old you are, but in my sixty-five year lifetime I can recall at least three conspiracies which worked supremely well...
        Simon
        He's only a slip of a boy Simon. But, hell, you are even older than me! Have you joined the official JTROFS (Jack the Ripper Old Farts' Society)? I was formally declared 'an old fart' by the fondly remembered Felicity Jane Lowde.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by How Brown View Post
          Jeff:

          Its not necessary for a precedent involving serial murder & conspiracy for the Whitechapel Murders to have been a conspiracy.

          There's a first time for everything in crime...

          You mention:

          "There is simply NO logic to a conspiracy theory behind the whitechappel murders.

          They were almost certainly committed by more than one person, and the majority (probably six as Anderson suspected) committed by someone with a severe mental problem.


          Despite your trying to prove the contrary, any murder involving more than one person is, by definition, a conspiracy.
          Assuming of course these people are working with each other, not that they are just three random, unrelated people who happen to commit similar gruesome murders in the same area at around about the same time!
          Jon

          "It is far more comfortable to point a finger and declare someone a devil, than to call upon your imagination to try to understand their world."


          http://www.jlrees.co.uk



          Comment


          • Firstly I will ignore the Norder Jibe which is a little below the belt. But yes, clearly I was suggesting that separate unrelated murderers might have been involved, not a group acting together. Although clearly the suggestion this was the case in at least Emma Smith’s murder would seem probable.

            And I’m NOT saying that conspiracies never happen. We do know they do. We have the Gun Powder Plot and Water Gate as two examples.

            I’m saying conspiracy theories seldom hold any water (Dianna, Kennedy, 911, Roswell etc etc) Although I’m willing to except government cock-up and cover-up. However my interpretation of conspiracy requires organizational skills, which most governments do not possess.

            I think your wrong if you suggest conspiracy theories are not fairly main stream in Ripperology. My first introduction was through the Barlow and Watts program as a boy, and Stephen Knight’s theory.

            So let me try and clarify what I was trying to express. That is that ‘Terrorists’ by and large, have a message of some sort to communicate. And for what ever reason they feel violence is the only option open to them to get publicity for their cause.

            Where I’m failing to grasp what is being said, is how anyone could believe that killing six, ‘bag ladies’, without two pennies to rub together. Who would appear to have no connection apart from their poverty, excessive drinking and prostitution? Could possibly have anything to gain or any message to communicate to a wider audience in their horrific deaths.

            The letters by and large seem the work of hoaxers, and I don’t recall any of them saying, “release Roderick from prison or another bag lady gets it”.

            In short if there were a Fenian connection surely, like 911, we would all know, who and more importantly WHY. Because the whole point of terrorism is communication.

            So I’m not being narrow minded, I’m simply failing to grasp any logic in why a conspirator would feel there was anything to gain by killing these women. I can see no similar examples. Yet when we look at blown up aircraft or assassinated heads of State, we can see hundreds of examples. This is how terrorist organizations and in Parnell’s case, freedom fighters working for a just cause, work.

            Serial killers kill people, terrorist created violent publicity campaigns.

            Pirate

            P.S. I don’t recall accusing anyone of being an old fart, but thanks for the young man complements, god knows I could do with some.

            Comment


            • If I were head of a Fenian terrorist organization, I would send a man like Tumblety not to a place like Whitechapel but to a place like Cleveland St. The fallout could be phenomenal.

              Comment


              • And yet...

                Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View Post
                ...
                Where I’m failing to grasp what is being said, is how anyone could believe that killing six, ‘bag ladies’, without two pennies to rub together. Who would appear to have no connection apart from their poverty, excessive drinking and prostitution? Could possibly have anything to gain or any message to communicate to a wider audience in their horrific deaths.
                ...
                And yet over the killing of these 'six, bag ladies'... we have an unprecedented international press publicity campaign, press vilification of the London police and government, high-ranking police and government officials in fear of being brought down over it and public hysteria. None of the previous bomb outrages in London ever came near to achieving this.

                Comment


                • But surely this was an unforeseen bi-product of the murders. Fueled largely by a new a emerging press. No terrorist in their wildest dream could have predicted what the consequence of a few dead bag ladies would have been when the murders started.

                  Surely shooting the queen or blowing up the houses of parliament is the obvious course of action for a disgruntled Irishman?

                  Pirate

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                    If I were head of a Fenian terrorist organization, I would send a man like Tumblety not to a place like Whitechapel but to a place like Cleveland St. The fallout could be phenomenal.
                    Excellent point.

                    Comment


                    • A Fact

                      Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View Post
                      But surely this was an unforeseen bi-product of the murders. Fueled largely by a new a emerging press. No terrorist in their wildest dream could have predicted what the consequence of a few dead bag ladies would have been when the murders started.
                      Surely shooting the queen or blowing up the houses of parliament is the obvious course of action for a disgruntled Irishman?
                      Pirate
                      Not being a 'conspiracy theorist' I'm not pushing anything here, merely stating a fact.

                      The arrests of past bombers revealed what a risky business that was, and with no really positive result in the press. The pressmen were already critical of the police and the government, especially in the wake of the 1887 troubles. It didn't take a genius to work out that if an unknown killer was randomly slaughtering women on the streets without getting caught it would result in an outraged press who would turn on the custodians of the law and the government.

                      Comment


                      • Hi Stewart,

                        No, I am not a member of JTROFS.

                        How do I join? Do I get a badge or T-shirt?

                        Regards,

                        Simon

                        Comment


                        • Hi Jeff,

                          I do not believe that "Jack" was a serial killer. Nor do I believe that two or more people conspired to kill the C5 for whatever reason. If they had, why did they do it in such half-arsed fashion?

                          But there is certainly enough evidence to suggest that whatever was really going on at the time in the East End was made to look like the work of a knuckle-dragging serial killer.

                          Regards,

                          Simon

                          Comment


                          • It still doesn’t make sense why they would target poor down and outs? Surely the obvious thing to do is target the rich. I think of the recent India atrocity where a bunch of gunmen went on the rampage just shooting whoever they saw at random.

                            These women were specifically chosen. Why?

                            If you want to bring down the government there is no president for this kind of behavior ever having worked before. And as far as I know no terrorist has since tried such a tactic.

                            Pirate

                            PS I’m off for a jolly and a pint, and a Friday scive..have a good weekend all

                            Comment


                            • Hi Jeff,

                              My goodness, you're a dab hand at missing the point.

                              These women were specifically chosen? By whom?

                              Regards,

                              Simon
                              Last edited by Simon Wood; October 2, 2009, 11:37 AM. Reason: in the interests of sanity

                              Comment


                              • A paranoid schitzophrenic expressing obsessional behaviour patterns?

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