Harrison Barber—Horse Slaughterers

[Gary Barnett]

That´s all very fundamentalistic, I´m afraid. Anybody is welcome to make any interpretation of the "knacker" addition to Hardimans occupation. What I said and what I stand by is that it would be odd to add "knacker" for no reason at all. To me, it opens up the possibility that Hardiman was indeed engaged in something that went beyond receiving cubes on skewers. And if this was so - which I cannot tell whether it was - then by extension, we may need to accept that Maria Louisa Lechmere could also have been something beyond a mere cats meat woman.
It seems to me that not having had me accept your bid has made you think that I would have locked myself to a position where Hardiman and Ma Lechmere must have been knackers or part knackers. That is not so - I am pointing to the possibility that you may be wrong, not that I must be right.

Christer,

The whole point of this discussion is that you stated that cat's meat dealers used 'fine-toothed saws'. My point is that all the evidence suggests that they did not. Not that they could not. Ma L could have used a chain saw (if they'd existed) but I don't think she would have.

I'd be more than happy to agree on,' Given what we know about the business, it is highly unlikely that Ma L used a fine-toothed saw, or any other tool, to bone her cat's meat - but it's possible, and slightly more likely than that she cubed her meat with a samurai sword.'

[Gary Barnett]

Ed,

Your'e forgetting (denying?) the existence of the monopoly. Only HB were allowed to slaughter horses in London and they ran knackers yards, not slaughterhouses.

Read the 1909 report. It tells us that meat coming from the country arrived cooked and boned. It also states that 'of course' there is no shop in the East End of London licensed to sell horseflesh as human food.

Where was Ma Lechmere, possibly uniquely in the cat's meat business in London at the time, getting her raw, boned meat - and why? (For Jamrach, perhaps?)


Gary

[Edward Stow]

Well strictly speaking what we have is that after 1874 no new knackers yards could be established.
We know that the company of Harrison Barber was established in 1885 by the amalgamation of the seven horse slaughter companies based in London.
It was said that this created a monopoly.
I have some information on this - not from newspaper reports - which I will post up later.

[Gary Barnett]

Well strictly speaking what we have is that after 1874 no new knackers yards could be established.
We know that the company of Harrison Barber was established in 1885 by the amalgamation of the seven horse slaughter companies based in London.
It was said that this created a monopoly.
I have some information on this - not from newspaper reports - which I will post up later.

Firms, not yards.

[Gary Barnett]

[Edward Stow]

The term 'business' referred to the premises not the firm - not the company. The yard in other words.
If you look at the definition of 'anew' it says that the business is not 'anew' if the owner of the premises changes. In other words if the firm - the company - changes, but the premises remain the same, it is not 'anew'.

[Christer Holmgren]

Christer,

The whole point of this discussion is that you stated that cat's meat dealers used 'fine-toothed saws'. My point is that all the evidence suggests that they did not. Not that they could not. Ma L could have used a chain saw (if they'd existed) but I don't think she would have.

I'd be more than happy to agree on,' Given what we know about the business, it is highly unlikely that Ma L used a fine-toothed saw, or any other tool, to bone her cat's meat - but it's possible, and slightly more likely than that she cubed her meat with a samurai sword.'

Somewhere in the process of turning a dead horse into cubes on skewers, meat saws WERE employed.

Somewhere in the process of turning a dead horse into cubes on skewers, Ma Lechmere plied her business.

It is quite reasonable to say that people who had small cubes of flesh on skewers delivered to their doors, for them to take out on the town and sell to cat´s owners, would not have any need for a met saw.

The problem is that we don´t know where in the process of turning a dead horse into cubes on skewers Old Ma Lechmere stepped in. If it was after the horse was deboned and boiled, she would not need a meat saw. If she bought slabs of horses, containing joints and bones, then she WOULD need a meat saw.

So supplying the East End with cats meat was something that took meat saws. Whether all the horse flesh meat saws were deposited at Harrison Barber, neither of us seems to know. You say that this was so, and that claiming any other possibility is earning yourself a place in the Flat Earth Lechmereian Society. I say that until we know, that may be a premature measure.

A little flexibility is what I recommend.

[Edward Stow]

I rather like the Harrison Barber logo. It looks a somewhat modern, but also reminds me of another logo or horses head badge but I can't place it.

[Edward Stow]

I will avoid discussions on this thread about any suspect - but here is an extract from the 1936 Post Office Directory. I chose this as I anted to start with one just before the war.

It shows Horse Slaughterers and Horse Flesh Dealers.
Harrison Barber are listed under both categories.
I would suggest that these Horse Flesh Dealers were not small scale cat's meat vendors.

Included as Horse Slaughterers are several in addition to Harrison Barber - most of whom were within the area covered by the slaughterhouses, &c (Metropolis) Act 1874.
Herbert Dove, Eldred Gosling, Lidstone Horse Slaughtering Company, and one of the Smith & Spalding depots.
I am not sure whether the regulations were relaxed at some stage.

[Edward Stow]

The 1924 Directory only listed Harrison Barber and two others that were both outside the County of London - in Stratford and Barking.
Some people might find it interesting that at this time Harrison Barber had a depot in Romford Market Place.

[Edward Stow]

This is the Post Office Directory for 1886 – the last pre-merger listing – and it shows all the companies that were to were to form Harrison Barber, and no others.

Harrison
Barber
Currell
Wallis and Milestone
Winkley and Shaw
Nicholas and Sons

Interestingly there are six and not seven companies.
Wallis and Milestone isn’t two it is one!

[Gary Barnett]

This is the Post Office Directory for 1886 – the last pre-merger listing – and it shows all the companies that were to were to form Harrison Barber, and no others.

Harrison
Barber
Currell
Wallis and Milestone
Winkley and Shaw
Nicholas and Sons

Interestingly there are six and not seven companies.
Wallis and Milestone isn’t two it is one!

[ATTACH]15420[/ATTACH]

Yes, it was W & M who had the (2) against their name in the prospectus advert. Two separate establishments, one at Croydon and one at Wandsworth.

[Gary Barnett]

I was aware of the Romford depot. There was also a Lady Knacker in Romford at the turn of the century named Matilda Palmer.

[Edward Stow]

Did it run in her family?

Croydon of course wasn't in the Metropolis.

[Gary Barnett]

Did it run in her family?

Croydon of course wasn't in the Metropolis.

Inevitably.

True.