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  • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
    Yes that was the end of the list that year.

    Any thoughts?
    Very interesting. It seems there may have been a single non-HB horse slaughterer operating out of a railway arch. Possibly he had a slaughterman's licence and was producing horsemeat for human consumption. He couldn't do that and be a knacker producing Ma L's cats meat.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
      Oh - in 1887 there was a horse flesh dealer sharing the arch with the horse slaughterer.
      [ATTACH]15432[/ATTACH]
      I have images from Post of Directories for year after year of Hart horse slaughterers operating from that railway arch - with a brief interlude of Smyths.

      I wonder if they supplied Old Ma Lechmere, just as they supplied her son and grandson.
      The premises under the arch were rather cramped. I tend to doubt this small business would have been as able as Harrison Barber to render their knackered horses to pulp.
      So you don't think someone working out of a railway arch would have been able to produce cats meat? How about someone living in two rooms in the Highway?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
        Oh - in 1887 there was a horse flesh dealer sharing the arch with the horse slaughterer.
        [ATTACH]15432[/ATTACH]
        I have images from Post of Directories for year after year of Hart horse slaughterers operating from that railway arch - with a brief interlude of Smyths.

        I wonder if they supplied Old Ma Lechmere, just as they supplied her son and grandson.
        The premises under the arch were rather cramped. I tend to doubt this small business would have been as able as Harrison Barber to render their knackered horses to pulp.
        I wonder how many horses Charlie S. killed each week. More than Charlie W. could handle obviously. The excess went raw as a prawn down to the Highway.

        Oh no, Mrs F wasn't there at the time. It must have gone to Cable Street.

        Comment


        • As you know the production off cat's meat was only one part of the process after killing a horse - at Harrison Barber. The noxious parts involved boiling the bones and bits and pieces down for fat and so forth.

          In any case the existence of an independent horse slaughterer re-opens the very real possibility that Old Ma Lechmere obtained her cats meat in a less treated manner than those who were restricted to getting it from Harrison Barber - for whom all your evidence derives.

          If we were to guess who was Old Ma Lechmere's supplier, then Hart seems more likely than Harrison Barber, given the proximity of their yard to Charles Lechmere's house and the fact that her grandson used Hart as his supplier some twenty or so years after she ended her involvement in that business.
          It seems likely that there was a continued business relationship between the Lechmeres and Harts from 1891 to 1943 - possibly from 1887 until 1943 - for the supply of horse meat for conversion to cat food.

          The monopoly is bust.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
            As you know the production off cat's meat was only one part of the process after killing a horse - at Harrison Barber. The noxious parts involved boiling the bones and bits and pieces down for fat and so forth.

            In any case the existence of an independent horse slaughterer re-opens the very real possibility that Old Ma Lechmere obtained her cats meat in a less treated manner than those who were restricted to getting it from Harrison Barber - for whom all your evidence derives.

            If we were to guess who was Old Ma Lechmere's supplier, then Hart seems more likely than Harrison Barber, given the proximity of their yard to Charles Lechmere's house and the fact that her grandson used Hart as his supplier some twenty or so years after she ended her involvement in that business.
            It seems likely that there was a continued business relationship between the Lechmeres and Harts from 1891 to 1943 - possibly from 1887 until 1943 - for the supply of horse meat for conversion to cat food.

            The monopoly is bust.
            Ed,

            Well done. You may have unearthed the exception that proves the rule. More impressively (as far as I'm concerned) for the Lechmere case is the known family connection to Hart's establishment. It's a shame you and Christer have such a low opinion of family history, otherwise you might have been able to use that in your presentation.

            There is still a niggling doubt in my mind, though. The legislation targeted knackers because they were allowed to process infected meat. A knacker could produce any amount of poisonous food for cats, etc. but nothing for human consumption. The solution in London was to create the monopoly of 7 large firms and to subject them to rigorous inspection. The HB head office in Belle Isle had a live-in farrier who inspected every animal brought in for slaughter.

            Perhaps there was a loophole in the legislation that only one slaughterer in the whole of London took advantage of. And perhaps Ma L. relied upon her son, the meat deliverer to supply her with stock from that source. But that still leaves the question of where it was boiled.

            Gary

            Comment


            • As I have said - the later generation did it in their back yard. Their yard backed onto the park.
              At Cable Street Old Ma Lechnere's yard backed into the railway

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
                As you know the production off cat's meat was only one part of the process after killing a horse - at Harrison Barber. The noxious parts involved boiling the bones and bits and pieces down for fat and so forth.

                In any case the existence of an independent horse slaughterer re-opens the very real possibility that Old Ma Lechmere obtained her cats meat in a less treated manner than those who were restricted to getting it from Harrison Barber - for whom all your evidence derives.

                If we were to guess who was Old Ma Lechmere's supplier, then Hart seems more likely than Harrison Barber, given the proximity of their yard to Charles Lechmere's house and the fact that her grandson used Hart as his supplier some twenty or so years after she ended her involvement in that business.
                It seems likely that there was a continued business relationship between the Lechmeres and Harts from 1891 to 1943 - possibly from 1887 until 1943 - for the supply of horse meat for conversion to cat food.

                The monopoly is bust.
                Hart was the one who was busted, for having the audacity to operate as a knacker within the metropolitan area. A potential fine of £50 a day - I bet he didn't make that mistake again.

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                • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
                  I will avoid discussions on this thread about any suspect - but here is an extract from the 1936 Post Office Directory. I chose this as I anted to start with one just before the war.

                  It shows Horse Slaughterers and Horse Flesh Dealers.
                  Harrison Barber are listed under both categories.
                  I would suggest that these Horse Flesh Dealers were not small scale cat's meat vendors.

                  Included as Horse Slaughterers are several in addition to Harrison Barber - most of whom were within the area covered by the slaughterhouses, &c (Metropolis) Act 1874.
                  Herbert Dove, Eldred Gosling, Lidstone Horse Slaughtering Company, and one of the Smith & Spalding depots.
                  I am not sure whether the regulations were relaxed at some stage.

                  [ATTACH]15418[/ATTACH]
                  I imagine that there was a wide range of establishments advertising themselves under the heading of Horseflesh Dealers. HB were there and they were very big. I'd be surprised if those whose addresses began with 1a, 2a, 21a and 24a were significant businesses. True, they didn't disclose themselves as mere cat's meat dealers, but then neither did Ma Lechmere on the 1891 census, or for that matter the Hardimans. We have to thank the press and an anonymous census official for giving the lie to their euphemism.

                  I found it interesting that under the same heading of Horse Dealers we have Hailey's Bloodstock Agency of Jermyn Street and Johnny Johnson of Brady Street.

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                  • Notice they appealed - and continued to openly trade as Horse Slaughterers for decades after and under different names - inviting regular harassment if nothing else.

                    I would take it that if someone went to the trouble of advertising themselves in a trade directory for a certain trade then the obvious thing to do is take it at face value.
                    According while there undoubtedly would be various scales of horse flesh dealerships there is no credible reason to doubt that someone who advertises their business as a horse flesh dealer was anything but that.
                    In the real world that is.

                    But hey this is Ripperology where anything goes!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
                      Notice they appealed - and continued to openly trade as Horse Slaughterers for decades after and under different names - inviting regular harassment if nothing else.

                      I would take it that if someone went to the trouble of advertising themselves in a trade directory for a certain trade then the obvious thing to do is take it at face value.
                      According while there undoubtedly would be various scales of horse flesh dealerships there is no credible reason to doubt that someone who advertises their business as a horse flesh dealer was anything but that.
                      In the real world that is.

                      But hey this is Ripperology where anything goes!
                      At what point did I suggest that Harts, or Mrs F or the Hardimans or anyone else for that matter did not sell the flesh of horses?

                      My point (as you well know but it suits you to pretend otherwise) is that the term horseflesh dealer was very often used as a euphemism for a cat's meat seller/dealer/purveyor (take your pick). The fact that someone described themselves as dealing in 'flesh' does not mean they dealt in raw un-boned meat.

                      As you say, anything goes in Ripperology, although this may be a first in the field. Here's a report from The Essex County Chronicle of Friday March the 6th, 1886 (page 2, column 6) which would appear to support your case.

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                      • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
                        Notice they appealed - and continued to openly trade as Horse Slaughterers for decades after and under different names - inviting regular harassment if nothing else.

                        I would take it that if someone went to the trouble of advertising themselves in a trade directory for a certain trade then the obvious thing to do is take it at face value.
                        According while there undoubtedly would be various scales of horse flesh dealerships there is no credible reason to doubt that someone who advertises their business as a horse flesh dealer was anything but that.
                        In the real world that is.

                        But hey this is Ripperology where anything goes!
                        Did you see the first address listed for HB as horse slaughterers in 1887. It was 18, Queen Victoria Street EC. Do you think they were knacking there?

                        Comment


                        • Fyfield is of course very close to Ongar and Greensted.

                          Gary
                          You suggested – and sometimes still suggest – that Old Ma Lechmere was not really a horse flesh dealer but was really a humble pedlar of cat’s meat.
                          This seems to be based on some reports of humble cat’s meat dealers passing themselves off in certain circumstances as if they occupied the more elevated position of horse flesh dealer. However the circumstances in which these social climbers made these claims are hardly similar to a census return – let alone advertising their business in a trade directory, and to bother even mentioning that there might be a similarity is absurd

                          I am not very interested in what anyone has to say about Hardiman – although I would observe that if the census said he was a ‘horse flesh dealer, knacker’, then unless there as a very good reason to doubt it, the most likely conclusion is that the also worked in a knacker’s yard. There is no reason to suggest that people who worked in knackers yards needed years of training, nor that knacker’s yard workers were more prone to following their fathers calling than any other type of work (obviously some people do follow their father’s calling, and it is not unknown for children take over their parents’ business) and lastly very few of the small number of people in London with ‘knacker’ attached to their occupation were proprietors.

                          One of the rather obvious differences between Harrison Barber and Harts is that Harrison Barber was a registered limited company, whereas Harts was a dodgy back street concern.
                          Limited companies tend to have registered addresses, very often in the City, such as, oh off the top of my head, Queen Victoria Street.

                          Comparing the registered address of limited company to the advertised premises of a sole trader is almost on a par with comparing the euphemistic use of the term ‘horse flesh’ dealer’ by a humble cat’s meat dealer in social circumstances where someone might wish to gratuitously talk themselves up, to someone registering their business in a trade directory for ten years as a horse flesh dealer – and suggesting that the trade directory entry was to cover up for social embarrassment.

                          I have still been unable to locate these Harts in Ancestry. They look like an interesting family.
                          I get the impression their yard was like a car breakers yard of later years where a horse could be disposed of no questions asked.
                          The Krays were of course related to a family of Harts.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
                            I have still been unable to locate these Harts in Ancestry. They look like an interesting family.
                            I get the impression their yard was like a car breakers yard of later years where a horse could be disposed of no questions asked.
                            The Krays were of course related to a family of Harts.
                            If it´s THOSE Harts, we are deep into the criminal history of the East End...!
                            "In these matters it is the little things that tell the tales" - Coroner Wynne Baxter during the Nichols inquest.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
                              Oh - in 1887 there was a horse flesh dealer sharing the arch with the horse
                              I have images from Post of Directories for year after year of Hart horse slaughterers operating from that railway arch - with a brief interlude of Smyths.

                              I wonder if they supplied Old Ma Lechmere, just as they supplied her son and grandson.
                              The premises under the arch were rather cramped. I tend to doubt this small business would have been as able as Harrison Barber to render their knackered horses to pulp.
                              I agree with your last point. Presumably, unless you've changed your mind, you will agree with me that it is unlikely that Thomas Lechmere was working as a cat's meat carter for the Harts. It's far more likely, isn't it, that he was working for the big boys a few minutes walk away from where he lived?

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                              • I have no idea who he carted cat's meat for. Maybe he delivered partially dismembered horses to people like his grandmother from Harts.
                                Hart's were only a few minutes from where he lived also and the family certainly did business with Harts later on.

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