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  • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    You actually believe that, Fish? Ye gods! I thought that such tripe would have died out with the demise of Nazi eugenics, but evidently I was wrong.It tells me that Mussolini and/or his photographers wanted to portray a certain image of their great leader. The image can tell us nothing about the man's true character at all.
    I should have known it, of course - if you were given the chance to paint me out as a latter-day criminal anthropologist, you WOULD do just that. In spite of how I adviced you not to.

    Have you ever heard the expression "body language", Gareth? Or is it a new phenomenon to you?
    Either way, body language is a term for how we can express things by using our bodys only, without using speech.

    One aspect of body language tells us that people who are standing in the kind of pose Lechmere was photographed in, will convey an impression of - well, you know what, since a number of people have expressed it on this thread.

    Now, if you had read me more carefully, you could - just could, not necessarily would - have seen that I said that we will interpret postures as saying something about a person. That is exactly what body language is about.

    And I took great care to point out that a posture cannot give away that a person is a serial killer - it can only dovetail with traits that we know are specifically knit to serial killing in many instances, such as arrrogance, a feeling of superiority etcetera.

    Was I too subtle when explaining this? Were the finer points lost on you?

    By the way, since you tell me that Mussolini´s posing was the result of a conscious polititcal agenda, here he is at 16:

    http://www.reformation.org/en-mussolini-at-16.jpg

    Doesn´t he look meek?

    and here is Stalin as a boy:

    http://ona.c.blog.so-net.ne.jp/_imag...91boy.jpg?c=a1

    and here is Hitler:

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/...x354_popup.jpg

    Now, what do you think I am going to say about these pictures? That I could tell by looking at them that they were going to become dictators? Sorry, Gareth, that is not going to happen. What I am going to say is that they all look very self-conscious and arrogant in these pictures, and that this body language is in accordance with what we know they became.

    The exact same applies for Lechmere - many people can look arrogant and self-conscious in pictures without being arrogant and self-conscious. But the impression they convey is nevertheless in accordance with being arrogant and self-conscious. As such, the picture of Lechmere does nothing at all to dissolve the picture I have of him as the killer - it instead reinforces that picture. Amazingly, arrogance and self-consiousness are typical traits of many serialists.

    This, by the way, is a rendering of what I felt like when I read your post:

    http://www.northwesternflipside.com/...015/04/man.jpg

    That´s not to say that I am this kind of person at all. I am just taking advantage of the posture of this man when trying to impress a message on you. You will of course not understand it, since according to you, a posture never says anything about the underlying character.

    But at least I tried. Thanks, by the way, for comparing me to nazis - very kind of you!!
    "In these matters it is the little things that tell the tales" - Coroner Wynne Baxter during the Nichols inquest.

    Comment


    • Here´s alittle something for you on body language, Gareth. The first link:

      http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/j...on-072414.html

      ...takes you to a Stanford university thesis on body language, where "scientists in the Communication Department now find that observing subtle changes in your torso and head movements can predict creative output or learning ability."

      Next up is this link:

      https://www.princeton.edu/main/news/...ion=topstories

      ...that comments on a Princeton University work, where "Princeton University researchers report in the journal Science that facial expressions can be ambiguous and subjective when viewed independently. The researchers asked study participants to determine from photographs if people were experiencing feelings such as loss, victory or pain from facial expressions or body language alone, or from both. In some cases, a facial expression associated with one emotion was paired with a body experiencing the opposite emotion."

      If yu wish, I can dig out a few more examples - they are around in abundance on the internet.

      And of course, these papers and thesises are all written by closet nazis and fascists. Goes without saying!
      "In these matters it is the little things that tell the tales" - Coroner Wynne Baxter during the Nichols inquest.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Christer Holmgren View Post
        Here´s alittle something for you on body language, Gareth. The first link:

        http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/j...on-072414.html
        We're not talking about "body language", Fish, but posture - to wit, the posture of a very old man in a photograph. A photo taken when exposure times were rather long and, moreover, when many people were unfamiliar/uncomfortable with having their photograph taken.

        Body language is, in itself, a somewhat fraught subject area; it's certainly not an exact science, and posture is not the same as "body language" in any case. As an analytic tool, posture has as much validity as measuring the length of someone's nose to decide whether they should live or die. Judging a person's character on the basis of a photograph has pretty much the same validity, and is just as susceptible to subjective bias.

        Don't patronise me on such things, by the way - I have a BSc in psychology, which equips me to realise just how ropy this sort of "science" can be.
        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

        "Suche Nullen"
        (F. Nietzsche)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
          We're not talking about "body language", Fish, but posture - to wit, the posture of a very old man in a photograph. A photo taken when exposure times were rather long and, moreover, when many people were unfamiliar/uncomfortable with having their photograph taken.

          Body language is, in itself, a somewhat fraught subject area; it's certainly not an exact science, and posture is not the same as "body language" in any case. As an analytic tool, posture has as much validity as measuring the length of someone's nose to decide whether they should live or die. Judging a person's character on the basis of a photograph has pretty much the same validity, and is just as susceptible to subjective bias.

          Don't patronise me on such things, by the way - I have a BSc in psychology, which equips me to realise just how ropy this sort of "science" can be.
          Are you now claiming that posture does not belong to the body language...?

          And how am I patronising you - I was not the one to compare my opponent to nazis!

          Here´s the next example from the net - it took me all of ten seconds to find it, though I have no grade in psychology:

          It is from the Scientific Portal on Body Language, Kinesics and Nonverbal Communication.

          It says:

          Reading Body Language - Common Postures

          Posture has great significance in interpreting body language. Postulating (adopting a posture) is very general approach for adjusting – relating with and defending ourselves from various physical environments, social situations, objects and persons. Posture speaks loudly.

          Adopting a posture has been hard coded in our subconscious minds since millions of year as primary defense and adaptive mechanism. Our aquatic ancestors started adopting postures and we got them in genes. Unlike facial expressions or voice, posture can be observed or sensed from long distance thus it has power to convey message to many.

          Shall I dig up more? Or are we done?
          "In these matters it is the little things that tell the tales" - Coroner Wynne Baxter during the Nichols inquest.

          Comment


          • The Wikipedia view (SHAME on me!)

            "Emotions can also be detected through body postures. Research has shown that body postures are more accurately recognised when an emotion is compared with a different or neutral emotion.[8] For example, a person feeling angry would portray dominance over the other, and his/her posture displays approach tendencies. Comparing this to a person feeling fearful: he/she would feel weak, submissive and his/her posture would display avoidance tendencies,[8] the opposite of an angry person.

            Sitting or standing postures also indicate one’s emotions. A person sitting till the back of his/her chair, leans forward with his/her head nodding along with the discussion implies that he/she is open, relaxed and generally ready to listen. On the other hand, a person who has his/her legs and arms crossed with the foot kicking slightly implies that he/she is feeling impatient and emotionally detached from the discussion.[5]

            In a standing discussion, a person stands with arms akimbo with feet pointed towards the speaker could suggest that he/she is attentive and is interested in the conversation. However, a small difference in this posture could mean a lot. For example, if the same person has his/her leg crossed over the other, and places his/her entire balance on one leg, this suggests a more casual attitude.[5]

            Open and expansive nonverbal posturing can also have downstream effects on testosterone and cortisol levels, which have clear implications for the study of human behavior [9]"


            Interestingly, it is also said that "body language is a kind of non verbal communication, where thoughts, intentions, or feelings are expressed by physical behaviors, such as facial expressions, body posture, gestures, eye movement, touch and the use of space. Body language exists in both animals and humans, but this article focuses on interpretations of human body language. It is also known as kinesics."

            So very apparently, they too sort posture in under body language.
            "In these matters it is the little things that tell the tales" - Coroner Wynne Baxter during the Nichols inquest.

            Comment


            • Next up:

              "Body Language Classification and Communicative Context"

              By Jianxue Yin, Nanyang Institute of Technology, Nanyang, Henan, China,

              Abstract: Body language is visual signals used in people's
              social intercourse which include
              movements, postures, and facial
              expressions that communicate emotions, attitudes and auxiliary
              information. Body language can be classified into symbolic body
              language and physiological body language according to its
              property; dynamic body language and static body language
              according to the state of the participator in social intercourse;
              auxiliary body language and independent body language
              according to its functions; and body language for specific
              occasions and body language for regular occasions according to
              the occasion where it is used. Understanding body language can
              not be achieved without the communicative context.
              Communicative context of body language includes posture group,
              linguistic context and social context.

              Has everybody else but you misunderstood, Gareth?

              Once again, you cannot tell serial killers from innocent people by looking at the posture of a person.

              But different postures DO belong to the body language, and they can and will convey different meaning to those who take part of them. They can therefore to some extent help describing the character of a person at the given moment when he or she adopts a certain posture.

              Therefore, when I say that the posture Lechmere takes in that vault, is one that conveys arrogance, defiance and self-consciousness to me, and that this impression tallies well with my picture of the killer, I am not so much ascribing to the nazis and fascists of the 1930:s as I am making a completely valid point.

              That point is not "Look at that serial killer", but instead "Well, if he was really the killer, then that posture goes very much hand in hand with what I would have expected". And that is a massive difference!
              "In these matters it is the little things that tell the tales" - Coroner Wynne Baxter during the Nichols inquest.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Christer Holmgren View Post
                Next up:
                That's quite enough of that. Scatter-gun posts featuring irrelevant "research" is a sure way to wind people up. Instead of doing that, just THINK things through.

                You cannot tell someone's personality, still less their history, from a photograph. Period. Hell, you can't even tell what a person's "usual" posture was, only what it was freeze-framed at one instant in time. And that's germane, also - a key aspect of "body language", for what it's worth, is about movement and context. You get neither in a still photo, so you can't even be sure what the person's body language might have meant whilst the photo was being taken!

                The whole idea is preposterous.
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen"
                (F. Nietzsche)

                Comment


                • Sam Flynn: That's quite enough of that. Scatter-gun posts featuring irrelevant "research" is a sure way to wind people up. Instead of doing that, just THINK things through.

                  Sorry, but this is not a hook I am letting you off. I have just proven that posture belongs to body language, and that it is a factor that has a lot to say about people as regards their mindset.
                  You are quote welcome to produce any material - apart from an assertion about your personal education - that nullifies what I posted.

                  You cannot tell someone's personality, still less their history, from a photograph. Period.

                  I did not say that I could, did I? I said that the posture - being a part of body language - can tell us something about the state of mind the person is in. I am NOT saying that we can form a complete picture of their overall character from it. So let´s leave them goalposts where I placed them, shall we?

                  Hell, you can't even tell what a person's "usual" posture was, only what it was freeze-framed at one instant in time.

                  And where did I claim that I could?

                  And that's germane, also - a key aspect of "body language", for what it's worth, is about movement and context.

                  Where did I claim the opposite? Did I not instead point out that the context of the specific example will be vital to what is conveyed?

                  You get neither in a still photo, so you can't even be sure what the person's body language might have meant whilst the photo was being taken!

                  Did I ever claim that? But you may need to look at how examples of posture are given in books: by way of photos, no less.

                  The whole idea is preposterous.

                  Yes, utterly - but it is YOUR idea, glued on my suggestion. So we should not get too carried away by what YOU falsely ascribe to me.

                  In short - don´t do that. Ever. Take responsibility for your own mistakes and misleading information instead. Like posture not belonging to body language, for example.

                  There is one thing only I agree with you over this: It is quite enough now!
                  "In these matters it is the little things that tell the tales" - Coroner Wynne Baxter during the Nichols inquest.

                  Comment


                  • Fish, the photo tells you NOTHING about his state of mind at the time. Please point out one thing that you have gleaned from the photo?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Christer Holmgren View Post
                      Sorry, but this is not a hook I am letting you off.
                      Coming from a person who would condemn a person on the basis of a single photograph, Fish, that scares me!
                      I have just proven that posture belongs to body language
                      You've proven nothing about the applicability of this to an old still photograph. A photo can't even tell you definitively what a person's usual posture was, still less their body-language or what it might "mean", so the whole idea is a non-starter.

                      Woooo! Spooky photograph of man with cold, shifty eyes; must have been a psycho!

                      Yeah, right.
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen"
                      (F. Nietzsche)

                      Comment


                      • Sam Flynn: Coming from a person who would condemn a person on the basis of a single photograph, Fish, that scares me!

                        What exactly is your problem, Gareth? I have told you numerous times now that I am NOT condemning anybody on the basis of a single photo. But you will not respect that; you falsely keep claiming things on my behalf while saying that I employ nazi methods.

                        Has the time not come to sober up now?


                        You've proven nothing about the applicability of this to an old still photograph.

                        But THAT WAS NOT WHAT I SAID, was it?

                        I said I had proven that posture belongs to body language. And the only reason I did so was because you denied that flatly. Which was wrong.
                        As for an "old" photograph, it matters not how old the picture is. A posture is a posture, no matter if the pic is taken in 1912 or 2016.
                        Why do you not stick to the issue at hand, Gareth? We both know that you are loosing that particular discussion big time, but I nevertheless consider it a minimum of honesty. Take it as a man and be done whith it. If, that is, you can.

                        A photo can't even tell you definitively what a person's usual posture was, still less their body-language or what it might "mean", so the whole idea is a non-starter.

                        Once again, WHEN and HOW did I say that a persons posture on a photo must equal that persons normal posture? This time I actually demand an answer, Gareth. You are quite through with falsely ascribing odd ideas to me, so let´s hear it, please? No more running, just a straightforward answer.

                        Woooo! Spooky photograph of man with cold, shifty eyes; must have been a psycho!

                        Yeah, right.

                        The eyes have nothing to do with the posture, I ´m afraid. And of course, I never said anything at all about the eyes, so this is apparently just another of these deceitful, false and dishonest ploys of yours.

                        If you had spoken of the posture, I would simply have reminded you that I have already said numerous times that there can be no pointing out of a whole character from a single photo. So that would be false to, if you did it.

                        Since you seemingly will not have the selfrespect to feel ashamed of yourself, there is no reason to prolong this charade of yours. You are free for the evening, Gareth.
                        "In these matters it is the little things that tell the tales" - Coroner Wynne Baxter during the Nichols inquest.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                          Fish, the photo tells you NOTHING about his state of mind at the time. Please point out one thing that you have gleaned from the photo?
                          You are free to read my posts to Gareth - the answers you are looking for are there. Including a number of references to f ex Stanford and Princeton, speaking about how we CAN convey impression by way of body language and posture and how we WILL read things into these matters.

                          You will probably find the exchange confusing - that comes from Gareth accusing me of a zillion things I never said, in order to allow for him to declare me a nazi lookalike. But don´t let that stop you!
                          "In these matters it is the little things that tell the tales" - Coroner Wynne Baxter during the Nichols inquest.

                          Comment


                          • Well, Fish, so far as I can make out, you think that "arrogance, defiance, control, superiority, scorn - these are elements that I think may have been present within Lechmere if he was the killer. So it was interesting to see if the photo would come anywhere near any of these things.

                            And boy, did it do just that...!"

                            And you think these things not because of his look, but because of his posture.

                            So if I understand you correctly, you are disregarding his facial expression, and concentrating on the shape of his body.

                            It would therefore be an interesting experiment for you to blank out everything except the bare outline and give that to a number of random people to pass comment on.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                              Well, Fish, so far as I can make out, you think that "arrogance, defiance, control, superiority, scorn - these are elements that I think may have been present within Lechmere if he was the killer. So it was interesting to see if the photo would come anywhere near any of these things.

                              And boy, did it do just that...!"

                              And you think these things not because of his look, but because of his posture.

                              So if I understand you correctly, you are disregarding his facial expression, and concentrating on the shape of his body.

                              It would therefore be an interesting experiment for you to blank out everything except the bare outline and give that to a number of random people to pass comment on.
                              I can think of a thousand interesting and fruitful experiments I would like to do.

                              This is not one of them, however.

                              And somehow, I dont think the researchers at Stanford and Princeton employ that method either - although I don´t really know.

                              All I know is that Lechmere apparently scares the hell out of a good many posters out here, posture or no posture...

                              Ps. Bye the bye, if I don´t want Gareth to ascribe his own ideas to me, the same goes for you; the posture is the part we were discussing, and it belongs to the body language. But it is the overall, three-dimensional impression of the man on the photo I am speaking about.
                              "In these matters it is the little things that tell the tales" - Coroner Wynne Baxter during the Nichols inquest.

                              Comment


                              • I said nothing that wasn't in your post #227, Fish.

                                Comment

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