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Persons Of Interest or Actual Suspects To date, over one hundred have been proposed...many are considered...but only one [ or was it two? ] was Jack The Ripper.

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Old March 24th, 2016, 08:36 PM   #1
Howard Brown
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Default The Crazy Jewish Butcher Theory- Autumn 1889

I'm trying to find more on this snippet.

Rochester Democrat And Chronicle
September 16, 1889
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Old March 24th, 2016, 08:39 PM   #2
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As you can see, this article from the same day states the police had no clue to the killer's identity.



Rochester Democrat And Chronicle
September 16, 1889
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Old March 24th, 2016, 09:12 PM   #3
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Does anyone believe that someone from within the police department (Metropolitan ) provided the press with this theory ?

A butcher, I could understand. A crazy one is also plausible.
What stands out to me is that they mention an ethnicity.

How about you ?
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Old March 25th, 2016, 06:44 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Brown View Post
I'm trying to find more on this snippet.

Rochester Democrat And Chronicle
September 16, 1889
******************
Thanks for posting this. I think it's very interesting, in view of the story about a suspect - an East-End businessman - which was circulating in the press at exactly this time.

The story was discovered by R. J. Palmer in an article which also discussed a suspect referred to as "Guzzling Jim". It said this about the businessman:
"The second man is now being watched. He is a resident of the East End, and has been for years. For a long time he has been acting in the most suspicious fashion. He has a business, to which he scarcely ever personally attends. He goes about drinking, and is to be met at all hours of the night in the streets all over the neighborhood. He enters his house at hours when his wife and family have long been at rest. No member of his family dare question him as to his ramblings. He knocks about among the lowest class of women at unearthly hours, although, according to general report, their very appearance is hateful in his sight. His hatred has been produced by physical suffering, for which, like most men of his class, he holds himself perfectly irresponsible. His habits are such as to give one the notion that he is not altogether in a fit position to be allowed to roam at will. Whether he has anything to do with any crime, it is, of course, impossible to say, but he is kept in view."
http://www.jtrforums.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=107

A few months ago Jerry Dunlop posted a version of the article on "Guzzling Jim" and the businessman, which appeared in the London Evening News And Post on 13 September 1889:
http://www.jtrforums.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=284

After that, slight variations of the businessman story appeared in several English newspapers from 18 September onwards. Last year Howard posted one from the North Eastern Daily Gazette of that date, which attributed the information to "a well-known detective":
http://www.jtrforums.com/showpost.ph...57&postcount=1

Some versions say that a reporter interviewed the detective on "Monday night" (i.e. 16 September), but the wording of these reports is similar to that of the London Evening News article that appeared on 13 September.

Anyway, the significance of this new snippet - if it relates to the same suspect - is that it identifies not only the man's ethnicity but also the nature of his business, which the other reports don't. And if he was a butcher, of course that may suggest he was identical with the suspect mentioned by Robert Sagar.
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Old March 25th, 2016, 10:26 AM   #5
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Chris:
Thanks very much for expanding on the clipping...much appreciated.
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Old March 25th, 2016, 11:00 AM   #6
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Hopefully, by putting all three ( the one Jerry located, the one I found, and R.J.'s commentary) in a single post, it'll be easier to see what Chris has compiled.


R.J. Palmer

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A few days ago I mentioned an account of police surveillance of a Whitechapel murder suspect in 1889. I've now had time to dig through my files. Sorry for my own 'cloak and dagger' air, but I have reasons for holding back the precise details of my source; I will say, however, that the correspondent is credible, lives in London, and is writing near the end of 1889. It's unclear whether the surveillance described is being carried out by the Met or the City of London police.

Two different near contemporary suspects are described. The first is a 'toff' who frequents Whitechapel and is known for drinking heavily and treating the locals. His name is given as "Jim."

The name of the second suspect is not given, but the description is quite interesting, and I'll give it in full.

"The second man is now being watched. He is a resident of the East End, and has been for years. For a long time he has been acting in the most suspicious fashion. He has a business, to which he scarcely ever personally attends. He goes about drinking, and is to be met at all hours of the night in the streets all over the neighborhood. He enters his house at hours when his wife and family have long been at rest. No member of his family dare question him as to his ramblings. He knocks about among the lowest class of women at unearthly hours, although, according to general report, their very appearance is hateful in his sight. His hatred has been produced by physical suffering, for which, like most men of his class, he holds himself perfectly irresponsible. His habits are such as to give one the notion that he is not altogether in a fit position to be allowed to roam at will. Whether he has anything to do with any crime, it is, of course, impossible to say, but he is kept in view."

Perhaps not a great deal to go on, but I have a gut feeling that this is the same suspect later described by detective Robert Sagar and/or Henry Cox.

For instance, just prior to describing his suspect, Cox makes a curious comment about the murderer being 'wronged' by a woman. A reference to syphilis? He also states:

"The man we suspected was about five feet six inches in height, with short, black curly hair, and he had a habit of taking late walks abroad. He occupied several shops in the East End, but from time to time he became insane, and was forced to spend a portion of his time in an asylum in Surrey."

The man my correspondent describes took late night walks and wasn't fit to roam abroad.

Further on, Cox also describes the man's habit of consorting with what my bloke refers to as "the lowest class of women at unearthly hours." One of these episodes took place while he was under surveillance.

"He made his way down to St. George's in the East End, and there to my astonishment I saw him stop and speak to a drunken woman.
I crouched in the doorway and held my breath. Was he going to throw himself right into my waiting arms? He passed on after a moment or two, and on I slunk after him.
As I passed the woman she laughed and shouted something after me, which, however, I did not catch.
My man was evidently of opinion that he might be followed at every minute. Now and again he turned his head and glanced over his shoulder..."

If Cox is describing the same man outlined by my 1889 source (and I readily admit that that conclusion is up in the air), then the City suspect wasn't Kosminski, for the suspect was described as being a married shop owner. As I stated earlier, my hunch is that the suspect was Hyam Hyams, whose biographic details are a reasonably good match. Obviously, this is far from certain.
[B]






Jerry Dunlop
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Howard mentioned Guzzling Jim in post #171 of this thread. I found a lengthy news clip about GJ. He was tracked for eighteen months. Some of the clipping is unreadable but you can get the idea.

London Evening News And Post September 13, 1889
















How Brown

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North Eastern Daily Gazette
September 18, 1889
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Old March 25th, 2016, 11:02 AM   #7
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Plus this:

While Albert Bachert was out looking for a female perpetrator...we find Winslow mentioning "Guzzling Jim" in the next article.

Any clues ?

Blackburn Standard and Weekly Express
September 21, 1889
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Old March 25th, 2016, 12:35 PM   #8
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Howard,

Thanks for re-igniting Guzzling Jim.

I'm sure you have read this, but it is a detailed account about Winslow's recollections. It's long but it gives a lot of insight into some of the questions you have asked here, I believe.http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/rps.winslow.html

"Guzzling Jim" seemed to be a man with money or at least posed as a man with money and in 1889 may have been living in the West End. The detectives tracked him to the Piccadilly/Marble Arch area. The senior detective seemed to think the younger detective was on a false scent. I got the impression the Senior detective knew who the man was and scoffed at the young detective for even thinking this man could be the Ripper.

When I get time, I have a few other thoughts on this I hope to contribute.
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Old March 25th, 2016, 03:16 PM   #9
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JD:
Thank Chris Phillips, buddy....I wouldn't have been able to recall the things he did and subsequently put together on this thread.
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Old March 25th, 2016, 07:36 PM   #10
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If the guy was a Jewish Butcher, he kind of sounds like Solomon De Leuw.
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